- Joined
- Jul 28, 2000
- Messages
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Just got this today. Benchmade 43 DM #012/100 Bali-Song Damasteel. 303 Stainless Steel skeleton handles. Looks like a ladder pattern damascus. Spring loaded latch. A very nice knife. Get one. You will like it. 
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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
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Bm 43dm 012/100 Coooooooooooool!!!
- Thread starter Edgefinder
- Start date
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- Jan 4, 2001
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- 323
Holy shiznitch!! That thing looks amazing. So strange how recently everyone is talking about a re-issue of SS handles, and here we have it! That damascus blade looks really good! I'm so jealous. Should have saved more money and got one of these. I'm sure they're all gone by now.
The handles look much like the 31's reviewed on Chuck's site. Very sexy. The counter sunk holes are much more pronounced and the edges are so much curvier.
I would like to know how you obtained such a knife, since there was no mention of it anywhere, even on the forums. Are other blades available for us poorer bali-enthusiasts who can't afford the damascus?
The handles look much like the 31's reviewed on Chuck's site. Very sexy. The counter sunk holes are much more pronounced and the edges are so much curvier.
I would like to know how you obtained such a knife, since there was no mention of it anywhere, even on the forums. Are other blades available for us poorer bali-enthusiasts who can't afford the damascus?
what the heck??? when was this announced, much less released? How did you get it, dealer, store front, special order from BM ? How much was it. I'd really like the steel handles and the spring loaded latch , but no damasteel, since it probably costs an arm and a leg...
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2001
- Messages
- 8,276
OK. Reality Check.
Those have been sold out from BM forever. 100 pieces limited run. Dealers ordered the whole 100 units before they even released the info to the public. See this thread about it.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180260
As for why it's still called a 43? It's because it has the Bowie blade. And the official model designation is the 43-DM.
That is a sweet surprise. I can't wait for mine to show.
Now, let's keep an eye out on those handles people. Remember the whole SS handle issue? Well, 49's were $600. These are $350. Next lower priced batch? Maybe.....
Those have been sold out from BM forever. 100 pieces limited run. Dealers ordered the whole 100 units before they even released the info to the public. See this thread about it.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180260
As for why it's still called a 43? It's because it has the Bowie blade. And the official model designation is the 43-DM.
That is a sweet surprise. I can't wait for mine to show.
Now, let's keep an eye out on those handles people. Remember the whole SS handle issue? Well, 49's were $600. These are $350. Next lower priced batch? Maybe.....
Ok. Question...
Limited editions and all is nice, but I want regular production! Is this all we'll see or are SS handles going to become another option? I'd really like to get an affordable (read: standard production run) BM 43/2/7. So does anyone know if this will be a new leaf that BM is going to turn over in the new year?
Limited editions and all is nice, but I want regular production! Is this all we'll see or are SS handles going to become another option? I'd really like to get an affordable (read: standard production run) BM 43/2/7. So does anyone know if this will be a new leaf that BM is going to turn over in the new year?
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- Sep 2, 2001
- Messages
- 8,276
As Navajo has been saying. If everyone complains about the same thing, as in "GIVE ME A SS PRODUCTION 42/3/7 AT A DECENT PRICE!!!!!!!!", maybe one day BM will listen. It won't happen if all you do is wait. We know they have the technology. We know they can do it. We may even be willing to pay a little more. But unless they get the message that there is a market for those SS handled 42/3/7, Limited Editons may be all the bali's you see with SS handles. Time to write BM.
Mykl Clark
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2000
- Messages
- 2,714
that is just flat out sweet. Really like the handles. I would love to see more rounded and deeper countersinking like that in all their balis (be it in Ti or steel.)
Wow, very very nice. Not so badly priced, as far as these things go - I wonder did BM produce it's own damascus or did they get stock from one of the damascus providers? I'm interested in it mostly to check out that spring-loaded latch!
Any info on which dealers have it?
Any info on which dealers have it?
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2000
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- 5,811
Tony is right! Benchmade isn't a company loaded with guys that love Balisongs. The Ti-Handles have done "OK" because everyone has been drooling for Benchmade to get back in the game with anything in this category of knife.
If we really let them know what we want.., Trust ME.., Benchmade will produce it.., but the projection from a marketing standpoint right this second.., would indicate that we absolutely LOVE the Ti-Handles.., and there is no need to change.
From my limited amount of time in being able to follow along.., it seems like many guys do like the titanium handles.., and think they are better. I don't agree.., but as many have mentioned in various posts.., it is certainly a subjective matter that is individual.
If many of you would like to see produciton models return to the SS domain.., then the best thing to do is simply write to Benchmade in a concise manner and let them know.
I honestly don't know at this point if most people that frequent the Forums like the Titanium better or not??? But in saying that.., I also think the marketing folks at Benchmade could be mislead simply because there has been such a long absence of Benchmade Balisongs that most of us would buy anything they make...(i.e., a distorted view of what Balisong enthusiasts really want).
That makes it up to us.., and I'm sure there are many votes on each side of the Ti-vs-SS handle question.
My personal vote.., would be for another "Custom Shop".., where we could choose a little.., but my guess is that won't happen in the current market..., and we will keep seeing the manufacturer (in this case Benchmade).., keep control of what is offered.
For a major knife company.., it doesn't make much sense to get into the world of personal desires.., and we are a very "picky" bunch of people if you step back and take a look.
What we think of as the "Glory Days" of B-SC.., PCC..and the evolution of Benchmade.., is not a viable model for a company like Benchmade now. -AND-.., there is no Jody Samson (with due respect to all the technological expertise at BM now).., Jody created the blades we all try to find and buy in a completely different market.., and as an "outside contractor" for the most part.
The analogy would be like Les deciding to have Custom makers now.., grind blades and sell them in Benchmade's handles. That simply won't happen because the cost would be prohibitive.
"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
If we really let them know what we want.., Trust ME.., Benchmade will produce it.., but the projection from a marketing standpoint right this second.., would indicate that we absolutely LOVE the Ti-Handles.., and there is no need to change.
From my limited amount of time in being able to follow along.., it seems like many guys do like the titanium handles.., and think they are better. I don't agree.., but as many have mentioned in various posts.., it is certainly a subjective matter that is individual.
If many of you would like to see produciton models return to the SS domain.., then the best thing to do is simply write to Benchmade in a concise manner and let them know.
I honestly don't know at this point if most people that frequent the Forums like the Titanium better or not??? But in saying that.., I also think the marketing folks at Benchmade could be mislead simply because there has been such a long absence of Benchmade Balisongs that most of us would buy anything they make...(i.e., a distorted view of what Balisong enthusiasts really want).
That makes it up to us.., and I'm sure there are many votes on each side of the Ti-vs-SS handle question.
My personal vote.., would be for another "Custom Shop".., where we could choose a little.., but my guess is that won't happen in the current market..., and we will keep seeing the manufacturer (in this case Benchmade).., keep control of what is offered.
For a major knife company.., it doesn't make much sense to get into the world of personal desires.., and we are a very "picky" bunch of people if you step back and take a look.
What we think of as the "Glory Days" of B-SC.., PCC..and the evolution of Benchmade.., is not a viable model for a company like Benchmade now. -AND-.., there is no Jody Samson (with due respect to all the technological expertise at BM now).., Jody created the blades we all try to find and buy in a completely different market.., and as an "outside contractor" for the most part.
The analogy would be like Les deciding to have Custom makers now.., grind blades and sell them in Benchmade's handles. That simply won't happen because the cost would be prohibitive.
"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Messages
- 148
Remember that "If you had to pick one" thread?
We have a new winner. Sorry Dobruski, this is the perfect knife, IMO.
We have a new winner. Sorry Dobruski, this is the perfect knife, IMO.
Gollnick
Musical Director
- Joined
- Mar 22, 1999
- Messages
- 29,258
I'm sorry to disagree, but that is drop dead wrong. The love of the balisong runs deep at Benchmade, all the way to the corner office. Les has more Bali-Songs in his desk drawer than most of all of you have... combined.
When Clay and I showed up a couple of years ago, they literally shut the whole company down and everyone came and was very excited. You could feel the love in that room... love for Bali-Songs.
What you do have to keep in mind is that Benchmade is a business. In order to protect the hundreds of jobs, the families, the people who depend on that business, they have to act and invest responsibily. That means that they can't do everything you want them to do, they can't do everything even THEY want to do right now. Keep in mind that while we see a lot of interest in balisongs, it remains a small, niche' market.
Today, I learned that twelve of the Damascus 43s have shipped. The holdup is the damascus steel material. They're having terrible times cutting it on their lasers due to inconsistencies in the material. They're working on it.
The handles are CNCed. Because a CNC machine all but runs itself, people tend to think of CNC as free. But CNC machines are very expensive. The machines used to make these handles cost a substantial fraction of a million dollars each and they cost more to run too. There is easily twenty times as much CNC machine time in one of these knives as there is in a conventional folder. This knife sells for 350. The conventional folder for $120. Yes, they're getting 3x the money for the knife, but they're putting in 20x the machine time. And that doesn't include the facts that they're scrapping out tons (almost literally) of the damascus material and burning (pun intended) hours of time on their expensive laser machines.
Why do they bother at all?
Two reasons: First, because there IS a great love of Bali-Songs at this company.
Second, because they're learning. Projects like this help them develope processes and stretch their capabilities. What they learn by making 100 of these, they will later translate into making 100,000 of something else.
Be patient. They will be getting the remainder of these out.
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2001
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- 8,276
I have no doubt that the balisong is still much loved in BM. The decision to invest so much money in the new Titanium handled series shows this. The love of Vance Collver to create the BM 43 shows this. That Rick Thatch would spend hundreds of hours to figure out the CNC programming of the 49's kris blade shows this. Roberta's personal crusade to put out those limited runs of Custom bali's in the ultra lean years shows this. But even you need to admit that there was a time when BM was giving the image to us bali lovers that their regular folder line was all that they cared about. And, as fast as they have rebounded with the new offerings, the orginal question still stands: Why did they chose Titanium as the new handle material instead of SS? A question that's greatly compounded by the handles in this release.
Yes, but with the initial investment in time and labor over, the cost to put out an additional batch of the same model will be further reduced. Those SS handles will be a big step in recouping that machine investment.
That statement disturbs me a bit. There is no reason they could not develope the CNC grinding using cheaper steel, and then tackle the damascus billets. The fact that they choose such an expensive, and nonconsistent material, to make their next production run of SS handles doesn't justify their exclusivity or their limited production price. What always makes me like BM so much is that they are willing to eat all that scrap cost, and stick with the price that advertised. If they keep doing that however, I doubt they'll continue making those limited runs, because as a business, those projects don't make much profit, have a high developement cost (those scraps), and only appeal the the same general set of customer (those that consistently buy limited editions from BM).
No question. Les didn't start three seperate companies because he loves liner lock folders.
No question there either. That's the beauty of CNC. Once it's stored, it's stored. You can even take that CNC program to any good quality machine shop and get the same results each time. BM don't have to depend on in-house CNC'ing for those handles if the demand skyrocket.
This series is not an issue. The Damascus blade is nice. But the fact that they have perfected the CNC program of the old style handles in SS is big news. That handle installed with a current production blade is that much closer to what we've been asking. And all what Pete, Navajo, and I have been saying is: Write them while you're waiting. Let them know those handles should be general issue, and not be found only on a limited run. Any one can plainly see that the SS handles can be easily become available if they decide to make it. If the 44/45/48's were any indication, they will again sell.
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- Jul 28, 2000
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No question there either. That's the beauty of CNC. Once it's stored, it's stored. You can even take that CNC program to any good quality machine shop and get the same results each time. BM don't have to depend on in-house CNC'ing for those handles if the demand skyrocket.
Let me elaborate a bit on the manufacturing part. I agree once a CNC program is written, it can be executed over and over... However, (I have never been to Benchmade) I have worked with CNC machines most of my life, and one item that must be accounted for is: These are high maintenance machines, and sometimes finicky and delicate machines especially the electronics; and the higher the accuracy of the part desired, increases the amount of time and money invested in the CNC machinery to keep it accurate. Also, 99%+ of companies who own and operate any machinery, push it to the limits, (becasue they really need an additional machine to meet demand) and try to accomplish things with the machines that for which the machines were not designed. I am not saying BM does this, just speaking in general terms.
The above results in wear, and machines losing accuracy, and results inincreased amounts of scrap. Machines are pushed to the limits in order to get the production out. Also, sometimes companies will buy a lesser machine initially (due to cost), and unintentionally over time keep tweaking it up, and tweaking it up to push more parts through, not realizing they are affecting and damaging the machine. I am not saying Benchmade does this, just talking in generalizations. You would need to know Benchmades workload plan, machine capacities, and machine maintenance program, in order to determine if they are pushing their machines beyond capacity. I am sure that information is not for public knowledge.
Additionally, (I know from experience) you typically, outsource the work that you do not want to do, or work at which you cannot be profitable. But there are many risks with outsourcing. You may not get the desired results (tolerances etc...) from an outsourced shop, and you risk losing proprietary information, and you have your engineers spending time running back and forth to the outsourcing shop to ensure dimension and quality, and to help them engineer their own product, as many other machine shops do not have the required technical expertise to work effectively. (Case in point: Devlopment & Production of the Monarch). Other shops may not be able to produce the tolerances that Benchmade requires, and if they can, it may be cost prohibitive. Additionally, knifemaking is Benchmade's core business so, it makes good sense to develop the necessary skills and talents in-house. This is one thing that will allow them to maintain a competetive edge over the competition.
That statement disturbs me a bit. There is no reason they could not develop the CNC grinding using cheaper steel, and then tackle the damascus billets. The fact that they choose such an expensive, and nonconsistent material, to make their next production run of SS handles doesn't justify their exclusivity or their limited production price. What always makes me like BM so much is that they are willing to eat all that scrap cost, and stick with the price that advertised. If they keep doing that however, I doubt they'll continue making those limited runs, because as a business, those projects don't make much profit, have a high developement cost (those scraps), and only appeal the the same general set of customer (those that consistently buy limited editions from BM).
Typically, to develop a CNC process such as machining or grinding, or cutting, or...once the drawing is complete, tools are chosen, the program is written, and the tool path is determined and entered into the program, you have to experiment with the intended material. You may need to experiment with speeds and feeds over the part, and try various types of end of arm tooling such as cutters, and grinding media etc... if BM is having major problems with the Damascus material such as, voids in the material, they may need to go back to their supplier to discuss the suppliers manufacturing processes.
Lastly, I really like the 43DM. It reminds me of the old Bali-Song U.S.A.'s. It would be nice to have a large variety of Bali-Songs and features however, as Gollnick stated, the Bali-Song market is small. For BM to mass produce Bali-Songs with many styles and features, they would have to spend a lot of time and money on developing and expanding the market demand, and their manufacturing capacity to meet the incoming demand. The Bali-Song would/may have to become more common place, like a necessity. That probably will not happen. Otherwise, they most likely will be able to only manufacture a few custom type Bali-Songs (like the 43DM and 49) that will cost more than most people want to pay.
I would like to see a return to the 3/16" thick blades, or something more than 1/8", and thicker handles. Otherwise, I think BM is doing pretty well turning out what Bali-Songs they have in the past 1-2 years.
Let me elaborate a bit on the manufacturing part. I agree once a CNC program is written, it can be executed over and over... However, (I have never been to Benchmade) I have worked with CNC machines most of my life, and one item that must be accounted for is: These are high maintenance machines, and sometimes finicky and delicate machines especially the electronics; and the higher the accuracy of the part desired, increases the amount of time and money invested in the CNC machinery to keep it accurate. Also, 99%+ of companies who own and operate any machinery, push it to the limits, (becasue they really need an additional machine to meet demand) and try to accomplish things with the machines that for which the machines were not designed. I am not saying BM does this, just speaking in general terms.
The above results in wear, and machines losing accuracy, and results inincreased amounts of scrap. Machines are pushed to the limits in order to get the production out. Also, sometimes companies will buy a lesser machine initially (due to cost), and unintentionally over time keep tweaking it up, and tweaking it up to push more parts through, not realizing they are affecting and damaging the machine. I am not saying Benchmade does this, just talking in generalizations. You would need to know Benchmades workload plan, machine capacities, and machine maintenance program, in order to determine if they are pushing their machines beyond capacity. I am sure that information is not for public knowledge.
Additionally, (I know from experience) you typically, outsource the work that you do not want to do, or work at which you cannot be profitable. But there are many risks with outsourcing. You may not get the desired results (tolerances etc...) from an outsourced shop, and you risk losing proprietary information, and you have your engineers spending time running back and forth to the outsourcing shop to ensure dimension and quality, and to help them engineer their own product, as many other machine shops do not have the required technical expertise to work effectively. (Case in point: Devlopment & Production of the Monarch). Other shops may not be able to produce the tolerances that Benchmade requires, and if they can, it may be cost prohibitive. Additionally, knifemaking is Benchmade's core business so, it makes good sense to develop the necessary skills and talents in-house. This is one thing that will allow them to maintain a competetive edge over the competition.
That statement disturbs me a bit. There is no reason they could not develop the CNC grinding using cheaper steel, and then tackle the damascus billets. The fact that they choose such an expensive, and nonconsistent material, to make their next production run of SS handles doesn't justify their exclusivity or their limited production price. What always makes me like BM so much is that they are willing to eat all that scrap cost, and stick with the price that advertised. If they keep doing that however, I doubt they'll continue making those limited runs, because as a business, those projects don't make much profit, have a high developement cost (those scraps), and only appeal the the same general set of customer (those that consistently buy limited editions from BM).
Typically, to develop a CNC process such as machining or grinding, or cutting, or...once the drawing is complete, tools are chosen, the program is written, and the tool path is determined and entered into the program, you have to experiment with the intended material. You may need to experiment with speeds and feeds over the part, and try various types of end of arm tooling such as cutters, and grinding media etc... if BM is having major problems with the Damascus material such as, voids in the material, they may need to go back to their supplier to discuss the suppliers manufacturing processes.
Lastly, I really like the 43DM. It reminds me of the old Bali-Song U.S.A.'s. It would be nice to have a large variety of Bali-Songs and features however, as Gollnick stated, the Bali-Song market is small. For BM to mass produce Bali-Songs with many styles and features, they would have to spend a lot of time and money on developing and expanding the market demand, and their manufacturing capacity to meet the incoming demand. The Bali-Song would/may have to become more common place, like a necessity. That probably will not happen. Otherwise, they most likely will be able to only manufacture a few custom type Bali-Songs (like the 43DM and 49) that will cost more than most people want to pay.
I would like to see a return to the 3/16" thick blades, or something more than 1/8", and thicker handles. Otherwise, I think BM is doing pretty well turning out what Bali-Songs they have in the past 1-2 years.
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2001
- Messages
- 8,276
At present, they have an excellent dedicated team. They are highly skilled, and there's no question about the talent that resides within. Just looking at the 49's can tell you that much. CNC machines are tempermental, and they are high maintenance, but as you yourself stated, that's because owners typically overwork them to compensate for lack of additional equipment. I have never found a machine shop that maintains their CNC machines according to the manufacturer's maintenance schedule. That amount of down time is just not profitable. That is not the fault of the machines. Even if they were engineered with a level of abuse, those machines cannot maintain thmeselves. Yes that is the reality, but the other reality is, for production level handles, you don't need to have such high precise tolerances. If those Ti handles have taught me anything, it's that BM is willing to gamble a chunk of their money and customers when they went with a casting process. No casting will ever come closer in tolerance than a CNC machined part, even if it's 2% off. I've measured everyone of my 4x Ti series bali's, and the differences in measurement isn't anywhere near what any machinist would call "good tolerances". Going to CNC will be a big improvement over the existing Ti handles. And since theat first gamble has already paid off in spades, there's no reason why the second gamble would not work. Especially when you consider how many 44/45/48 users out there woulnd't mind having a replacement of their old bali. As Chuck said, BM sold a ton of those.
Except for the actual grinding setting and media selection, all this testing could have been done with lower cost metal.
My point exactly. There is no reason to have scrapped "tons of damascus". That is simply a problem of bad material resources.
Even though BM has been able to complete the CNC program of the handles, they have yet explored the MIM capabilities to manufacture the SS handles. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Maybe the CNC handles will be limited to the custom limited editons, as they are more costly to manufacture. But the simplicity of the issue is, there is a demand for those SS handles, and not everyone is willing to spend $350 to get it. BM charged $350 for the customs, but they gave you choices. They knew that the average person cannot afford $350, so they created the SS 4x series. As big or as small as BM wants to make those bali runs, there will always be a market.
They won't know until we write them. This is free market surveying we're doing for them. IF enough people commit, a limited run of 500 wouldn't be out of the question. I suspect this forum would account for a big chuck of it. There are a lot of new bali users that don't know how a SS bali handles. Time for them to learn.
As wonderfully as they have done with the existing crop of balisong, they are still missing some core elements that the old bali fan's crave for. One is SS handles, another is 3/16" blade (yes, that would be great), and another is custom choices. We're not telling BM how to run their business, we are simply asking them to entertain the ideas.
Way back when I posted a scenerio where down the road with the 49's over with, and with the CNC progamming banks full, I envision a customer calling in and ordering a semi-custom bali with his choice of blade styles and handles. It won't take much then to do that. Just a good operator putting together the CNC programs and the bali is complete. They can easily charge custom level prices for these. Yes, the CNC programming will take time. But we have two handle styles already, and now at least four blade shapes. And that's in a span of the past two years. At that pace, it'll only take them another 2 years to match the old custom bali lineup.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2000
- Messages
- 1,279
Tony, I agree with you on your comments. I would like to see all the handles machined from stock. Stainless steel would be less expensive than titanium to purchase and machine. However, the MIM casting processes can make them faster and cheaper, but it seems, not to the tolerances we desire, and I believe MIM is limited on part size. But these processes have left something to be desired such as, creating voids in the material that show up as defects.
However, machining these parts is expensive and time consuming, but it should be part of BM's core business. The tooling is expensive and wears quickly, it puts wear on the machines etc... A CNC operator/machinist is paid fairly well (probably $18.00 to $30.00+ per hour depending on Geographic location and type of industry)). Most likely, BM figures their machine time at an hourly rate plus burden cost which could be anywhere from $50.00 to $250.00+ per hour to operate the machine, pay the operator, tooling, G&A, profit etc... So, at that rate, how many parts per hour do they have to make to earn a profit? How many parts can they make in an hour? How many machines do they need to make the parts etc..? BM figures it can cast several parts in the time it takes to set-up and machine one part however, they are outsourcing the casting which means it is no longer a core competency. They are looking to save $'s, yet provide a good product. The MIM and casting processes cannot yet duplicate the part and tolerances created by machining. Although, investment casting is supposed to be accurate.
Also, I had heard a comment that supposedly came out of BM about their Bali-Songs that was something to the effect of "BM makes what they want, not what others want". It is OK to take artistic license with their own product, but it would be a fatal mistake not to listen to the consumer's needs and wants when it comes to producing any consumer product. That is business 101. If BM really feels that way, then they better hire someone who knows how to run a business, or they are eventually headed for disaster.
Ideally, (IMO)if BM can make Bali-Songs with the features like the old days, but use the technology of today to make them better, faster, and for less $'s so, the consumer (us) can afford them, and they can make a profit, that is the winning formula. BM as with all companies that produce a consumer product must realize that the consumer is king. They should be producing a product for the consumer. So, it makes sense to listen to the consumer, and give them what they want and/or need. Otherwise, someone else will find out what the consumer wants, and deliver it. However, one big advantage BM has is their brand recognition especially, with the Bali-Song and butterfly registered trademark. Bali-Song has become a word used to describe all butterfly knives, like XEROX, or KLEENEX etc... That is a great advantage for BM.
However, machining these parts is expensive and time consuming, but it should be part of BM's core business. The tooling is expensive and wears quickly, it puts wear on the machines etc... A CNC operator/machinist is paid fairly well (probably $18.00 to $30.00+ per hour depending on Geographic location and type of industry)). Most likely, BM figures their machine time at an hourly rate plus burden cost which could be anywhere from $50.00 to $250.00+ per hour to operate the machine, pay the operator, tooling, G&A, profit etc... So, at that rate, how many parts per hour do they have to make to earn a profit? How many parts can they make in an hour? How many machines do they need to make the parts etc..? BM figures it can cast several parts in the time it takes to set-up and machine one part however, they are outsourcing the casting which means it is no longer a core competency. They are looking to save $'s, yet provide a good product. The MIM and casting processes cannot yet duplicate the part and tolerances created by machining. Although, investment casting is supposed to be accurate.
Also, I had heard a comment that supposedly came out of BM about their Bali-Songs that was something to the effect of "BM makes what they want, not what others want". It is OK to take artistic license with their own product, but it would be a fatal mistake not to listen to the consumer's needs and wants when it comes to producing any consumer product. That is business 101. If BM really feels that way, then they better hire someone who knows how to run a business, or they are eventually headed for disaster.
Ideally, (IMO)if BM can make Bali-Songs with the features like the old days, but use the technology of today to make them better, faster, and for less $'s so, the consumer (us) can afford them, and they can make a profit, that is the winning formula. BM as with all companies that produce a consumer product must realize that the consumer is king. They should be producing a product for the consumer. So, it makes sense to listen to the consumer, and give them what they want and/or need. Otherwise, someone else will find out what the consumer wants, and deliver it. However, one big advantage BM has is their brand recognition especially, with the Bali-Song and butterfly registered trademark. Bali-Song has become a word used to describe all butterfly knives, like XEROX, or KLEENEX etc... That is a great advantage for BM.