BM710 vs Spyderco Military

I am lucky enough to have a Military PE and I am currently waiting for my 710HS to come in. I handled the 710 that I was looking at in a trade and decided I had to have one and since I don't have a HS steel knife, I opted for that version. I do think that handle size and shape do mean a lot. Both are great knives and the steels in each have their good and bad points as do their locking mechanisms. If you are looking for an EDC and not something to go into a rotation or to sit in the closet, then I really think ergonomics playes a more important part in the selection. We all know that no matter how good one thing is against another, if it isn't comfortable to use or there is something about it that you just don't care for, it will wind up in the drawer. So I would have to say, make sure it is comfortable to handle and carry before spending your hard earned dead presidents.
 
I have owned and used three BM 710's and three Spyderco Military knives. My choice is the Military, I sold off all of the BM710's and BM941 knives in my collection.

The flat ground CPM440V is excellent for cutting, very easy to keep sharp with a leather strop and CrOxide compound. The knife is large but very light weight. I have no problems with the liner lock, of course I do not pry, twist or abuse the lock. When requiring heavy use as prybar etc. I will use a fixed blade.


Axis locks have some disadvantages despite the rave reviews.

1. Hold the knife with thumb and fingers on the sides (flats) pull back (pull slicing cut) and the locking bar sometimes will disengage with finger slip.

2. The cool factor of holding back the locking bar and flicking open the knife will wear the stop pin and draw unnecessary attention to the large knife. In many areas the knife will be declared illegal as a gravity knife with this operation.

3. Broken omega springs are reported more often now (low bid spring subcontractors?) and the knife does not work 100% with only one spring. BM will not send you a replacement spring, you must send it back to Oregon and pay for shipment, insurance etc.

BTW I do like BM products and have an old BM812 as EDC and purchased two Outbounder 180's in D2 this weekend.

Regards,
FK
 
I've been in the same sort or debate myself resently I'm going for the BM806 in D2 this way you get the brut strengh of a benchmade with the axis lock and a Great tool steel. However my opinion is tainted because I HATE liner locks... I've never had one fail but I've watched them wiggle under heavy use I guess I just like my fingers the way they are. liner lock make me nervous :p
 
I've had both a Military PE and a 710HS for some time now. When all is said and done, it's the Military that gets used. The 710HS is a very good knife, and the M2 steel is sensational, but I much prefer the design of the Military.

The Military is butt ugly. The shape is odd and the G10 scales are designed for utility instead of aesthetics. But the knife can easily be opened when wearing work gloves. The huge opening hole is a big deal to me. The Military also has the best ergonomics of any folder I’ve ever used. I’m generally not a fan of liner locks, but the Military’s liner lock is extraordinarily well done. The eccentric pivot is a big plus.

I’m no fan of 440V, but I have to come to peace with it. I convexed the edge of the blade with 220 grit wet/dry paper (only took 10 minutes), and now just strop the edge instead of using a Sharpmaker. Convexing the edge bevel greatly improved the cutting efficiency of the knife, and made a 999% change in how easy the knife is to sharpen.

To tell you the truth, I wasn’t exactly blown away by the Military when I first got it. It didn’t look or feel that impressive at first, but quickly grew on me. Sal definitely designed the knife for pure utility, and didn’t give a hoot about the looks. That’s fine with me. Aesthetics don’t matter much when you’re stuck on an island in the middle of an Adirondack lake, after high winds have forced your canoe off the water. The Military will easily clean the fish you did manage to catch, and get you through the night as well. When used properly, this knife will not let you down.

I was very impressed by the 710 at first, but liked it less after extensive use. The Axis mechanism got too dirty too quickly for outdoor work, and you can forget opening the knife while wearing work gloves. I’m sure it would be fine in an indoor environment, but the outdoors was too much for it. I can’t fault the M2 though. M2 is awesome stuff. The blade shape and steel are the only things that I really love about the 710.
 
Buzzbait,
The Military is butt ugly
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Exactly my thoughts, I have never liked how most of Spydies look, in fact I currently do not like the look of Military as well. My wife calls Spydies smiling crocodiles. But I certainly like how they work!

No way to say BENCHMADE make worse knives! Their knives are excellent and I like them a lot. As prove I can mention that 551 Griptilian is my daily carry with urban jeans-n-polo attire for about half year and I’m not going to change this situation so far.

However urban environment allows to send the knife with broken spring to manufacturer replacing it temporarily in daily carry with another one form my collection – this is nothing serious to complain about. Quite another matter is if you are on the island at the middle of no matter what and can’t repair your knife even with the best manufacturer’s wishes.
And this is the main goal of simpler and not having small parts liner lock.

AFCK is my favorite BM design, however going into deep wilderness I would choose 800 classic one with liner lock for the same reasons.

Edited for spelling, oh my English :(
 
Originally posted by Buzzbait
...and you can forget opening the knife while wearing work gloves.
Click to expand...
Hey Buzz,
That's weird. One of the things I like about the 710 is that I can open and close it with work gloves on, even the welding gloves that I wear when working with the hot stuff (we melt rocks, remember;)). I can't unlock a frame or liner lock without taking the gloves off...
Agree 100% about stuff getting in the locking mechanism, and not depending on those springs when you're "out there". I don't depend on any folder in the woods. Not when there's always a fixed blade that will do the same job, and do it better.
 
My opening problem with my 710 may be unique to me. My specific knife isn't much good for inertial openings, so I have to use the thumb stud, which is tough with a pair of gloves. If I loosen the pivot screw enough to use the Axis gizmo for an inertial opening, the blade has an inordinate amount of lateral play, and rubs against one liner. If I tighten it up, the blade will only open up about half way when I flick my wrist.

I tried taking the blade out of the knife, polishing the pivot part of the blade, and polishing the liners around the pivot, but it didn't seem to do too much. I think that the pivot hole in the blade isn't exactly on center, or one liner is drilled off a bit, causing a lot of unnecessary friction. It definitely isn’t normal for the entire Axis line of knives, as the 730 I once had did incredible inertial openings. I’ve heard of this problem a few times on the 710 though. I think that Benchmade gets better and better with the Axis lock every time they put out a new model.
 
Well, that sucks. It's being able to thumb back the Axis and pop the blade open or closed that makes my 710 so convenient as a working knife.
BM would probably fix it, or put a new blade on there. Blows having to send a knife off, just like sending my 710 in for a new spring did (they had it back in about a week, though), but I bet they'd do it.
 
I'm going to recommend the 710.

The Military is a very good knife. The nested liners and eccentric pivot pin make it one of the best liner lock folders out there. It is tough, easy to open, easy to use in gloves, and an all around great knife. It has a blade geometry that cuts like crazy.

The only down side of the military, IMO, is the liner lock.

For a liner lock, the military is very strong. But, it is still a liner lock knife. If it had a compression lock.. well.. that would be a different story. I hope that Spyderco will eventually upgrade the Military.

The 710, on the other hand, has the blessing of the axis lock. No lock is perfect, but the axis lock is better than most. One of its best aspects is the redundant springs. Even if one omega spring breaks, the other one is still enough to keep the knife locked.

The 710 has a smaller pocket profile, and is a well built knife. The blade geometry cuts extremely well. Given a little work, it can cut even better. The recurve is sweet.

I'm going to go out on a limb and recommend the ATS-34 version. Its a little cheaper, but more importantly, more rust resistant and easier to sharpen. And, I think it is still "good enough" for most tasks.

The tool steel version may be tougher, but will leave you relying on a blade coating to prevent rust, which does eventually wear away, especially with hard use. Plus, scratched up coating looks ugly. :)

Anyways, YMMV, but I think you would be pretty happy with either knife.

-- Rob

PS - Just to make things difficult - have you also considered the BM 806D2, the Spyderco Police, the Al Mar Sere 2000, etc?
 
The military handle is just too big (long) for my modest size hands and pocket as an edc. The 710 is pushing it but still acceptable. I have owned a 710 im M2 and 154 and can tell you that the M2 is Not more difficult to sharpen whatsoever and in fact it is actually quite easy to obtain a wicked edge using sharpmaker or ceramic rods. Yes, I hate the coating and the if the 710 is ever made available in SV30, I'll own a third. Just my $.02
 
Originally posted by Buzzbait
My opening problem with my 710 may be unique to me. My specific knife isn't much good for inertial openings, so I have to use the thumb stud, which is tough with a pair of gloves. If I loosen the pivot screw enough to use the Axis gizmo for an inertial opening, the blade has an inordinate amount of lateral play, and rubs against one liner. If I tighten it up, the blade will only open up about half way when I flick my wrist.

I tried taking the blade out of the knife, polishing the pivot part of the blade, and polishing the liners around the pivot, but it didn't seem to do too much. I think that the pivot hole in the blade isn't exactly on center, or one liner is drilled off a bit, causing a lot of unnecessary friction. It definitely isn’t normal for the entire Axis line of knives, as the 730 I once had did incredible inertial openings. I’ve heard of this problem a few times on the 710 though. I think that Benchmade gets better and better with the Axis lock every time they put out a new model.
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Buzzbait,

You should return your knife for servicing. There's something definitely wrong with it. Didn't you complain about this several months back?

If you leave it the way it is, you're not getting its full potential.

The 710 Axis should smooooth; "like butta'".
 
I thought about sending in my 710, but decided against it. I did some custom modification to the knife that voided the "easy to avoid" Benchmade warranty. I'd end up paying a bunch of money to have the problem fixed. I just don't want to put more money into knife.
 
I own both knives by the way.

As usual, I agree with Joe Talmadge's comments. To his I would add these:

Benchmade is able to run their M2 at Rc60-62 due this high alloy but non-stainless tool steel's inherent toughness. Spyderco had to drop 440V down to Rc55-56 to combat brittleness. This is a huge drop in hardness, as Rc52 is about the bottom level of hardness that allows a big rope to be cut even once or twice without sawing, i.e. the absolute bottom end for any kind of small knife blade, and Rc62 is a practical max for most conventional steels. The practical hardness range for knives is about 11 Rockwell C points in width.

Translation: while 440V might resist abrasive wear well, the edge rolls much more easily than does an M2 blade. So dropping from Rc60 down to Rc56 is a 4/11ths or around 35-40% drop in resistance to edge rolling/impaction. If I had tried to overemphasize this point, I'd have said "So dropping from Rc62 down to Rc55 is a 7/11ths or around a 65% drop in resistance to edge rolling/impaction." And while a complex relationship, even abrasive wear resistance seems to be enhanced by hardness (underlying matrix stays upright to keep the carbides where they need to be to resist abrasion).

Buzzbait's idea of putting a convex grind on the Military has merit for another reason IMO ... can help by putting some more metallic support behind an edge that wants to roll.

And the 710 in M2 is my current hard use, around-the-house, outdoors beater. And I'm renovating this particular house at the moment, so it gets a workout about every weekend (cutting carpet, drywall, scraping paint (very hard on an edge), cutting wood, mild digging and prying, you name it.)

The M2 is generally not a problem when it comes to rust, which surprised me. I have gotten minor spots of iron oxide, but they came off easily with a sharpening stone. No pitting. I can't remember whether it was tree/vine sap or what that provided both moisture and something sticky to hold it in place. I don't know that I'd want to carry the M2 if I was going to soak it with salty sweat in the Summer, but otherwise it has been fine.

I want to emphasize that the Military is a big comfortable knife to my hand, but the "bigness" goes past utility to me, the size becoming more of a liability than advantage ... in my front right pocket, it is just long enough to become an irritant compared with the 710. The Military pokes my thigh when I sit down, and is generally just too big for routine carry for me personally (and I'm 5'-11"). If you are say 6'-3" or taller, this may be a non issue.

The Military has an inefficient blade-length-to-handle-length ratio. The pivot pin is back a bit far, and the butt of the handle is excessively long, those are the design features I'd change FIRST if I were chartered to make the Military a more all around useable piece. Well, the upgrade to S30V will help a BUNCH also. Heck, after owning a Military and a couple of the Starmates, I'd rather have an ATS-34 at Rc60-61 than 440V at Rc55-56. (In fact, I personally like the Starmate better than the Military).

Also, while the flat grind is great and produces a performant edge grind, I always feel like the Military's absolutely straight distal taper leaves the point being too thin, too fragile, so I'm reluctant to endorse the otherwise fairly robust design somehow, especially in a "tends towards weak 440V" blade... probably just too damned much chrome in 440V. I suspect they set up some kind of automated grinder to knock out the pure, flat, distal grinds on the Military, but again if I were allowed to modify the design, I'd sure leave more more meat near the tip... come up with a big more complex distal taper which of course would raise the price. The Starmate is a better grind for tip strength subjectively.

I can get both 440V (soft) AND the M2 wickedly sharp... both excel here. But many soft blade steels are easy to get a really great, grabby, scary sharp edge onto, and 440V seems to have a nice fine grain structure and is easy to sharpen with diamonds. Being able to get a scary sharp edge onto a hard blade like M2 is a nice benefit, to me anyway.

I think the only thing I'd change about the 710 is I'd make it available in S30V at Rc60-61 instead of 154CM, and I'd offer CPM3V instead of M2, and I'd make the "guard" area of the handle, where your index finger rides, a bit deeper to provide a better/safer grip in a thrusting motion. That's about all I can come up with, and I'm kinda picky. Maybe go back to the "old" styled G10 from the 1996-98 time period, the grippier stuff.

(I own 3 of the 710's, two in ATS34/154CM, and one in M2. Great all around folding knife).
 
Originally posted by rdangerer
So dropping from Rc60 down to Rc56 is a 4/11ths or around 35-40% drop in resistance to edge rolling/impaction. If I had tried to overemphasize this point, I'd have said "So dropping from Rc62 down to Rc55 is a 7/11ths or around a 65% drop in resistance to edge rolling/impaction."
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rdangerer,

Wouldn't that be true only if resistance to edge rolling/impaction is a linear function of the Rockwell hardness? Is edge rolling/impaction a strong function of the Rockwell hardness?

I'm not doubting your extensive experience with these steels; just want to deepen my own understanding of the various metallurgical properties! :)

Thanks,

Matthew
 
Originally posted by Starfish
rdangerer,

Wouldn't that be true only if resistance to edge rolling/impaction is a linear function of the Rockwell hardness? Is edge rolling/impaction a strong function of the Rockwell hardness?

Thanks,

Matthew
Click to expand...

Sure, my "math" would only be true if things were linear... I'm not trying to be strictly prescriptive here, just highlighting something I see misrepresented frequently ... numerous forumites have said something to the effect of "hey, dropping 4 points from Rc60 to Rc56 isn't a very big deal", and I contend it is a pretty big deal, from both a rational and practical "what I see in real use" perspective. It isn't like 4/60 or 6.7% drop in performance (which would take a lot of time to detect), it's more like 4/11 or a 36% drop in cutting performance (which is easily perceived), more particularly in edge rolling. This stuff is hard to quantify of course, as you can get swamped by differences in steel microstructure and carbide content, blade grind, edge thickness, hollow vs. flat, etc.

Most of the time, like say 95% of the time, I resharpen or strop/steel because the edge rolled or nicked, both in the kitchen (impaction and rolling on cutting board) and around the house and in the field, and not because the edge abrasively wore down. Things like cutting lots of rope, cardboard, or carpet, cleaning game (esp dirty game like pigs) would tend to truly dull through removal of metal (wear) via abrasion, but I don't seem to cut lots of rope or cardboard in routine daily life. Did cut a bunch of carpet into pieces to get it out of the house by myself in manageable rolls, but the M2 held up great (440V would have also) since I kept the blade perpendicular.

I would cite tests published by Wayne Goddard as widely available evidence from testing by one thoughtful maker who has tried to be consistent and repeatable in his performance testing (see his book "Wonder of Knifemaking").

Cliff Stamp might be able to elucidate in more prescriptive terms on how linear it really is, but I'd say it appears to be strongly proportional, but I'd be surprised if it were extremely linear. Science doesn't work out that way it seems. And we're mixing two issues actually... straight impaction and more of a bending of the metallic edge.

The Rockwell B and C tests are indeed impaction tests... a known weight is applied to a known "point" size, and the point is allowed to indent into the test material, and the level of indentation is measured and correlated to some scale a guy named Rockwell dreamt up.

Is impaction strictly what happens to a knife blade? Nope. You get both pure impaction (envision hitting a staple as you push cut through something), but also a bending type of deflection (envision scraping paint with a knife blade).... so maybe tensile or some kind of bending strength should be measured also for blade edge performance metric. Few of us can or try to keep a knife blade perfectly perpendicular to the surface we are cutting in real use.

I'm not a materials or metallurgical engineer, just a knife user.

There are a few forumites and numerous makers who can get way deep into mechanical engineering and physics-type parameters... I'm an Electrical Engineer with an interest in knives and metallurgy. I know my limits and will defer to others with more depth in the materials sciences. And I readily defer to makers who have done a lot of controlled testing, that is for sure.
 
Originally posted by rdangerer
...just highlighting something I see misrepresented frequently ... numerous forumites have said something to the effect of "hey, dropping 4 points from Rc60 to Rc56 isn't a very big deal", and I contend it is a pretty big deal, from both a rational and practical "what I see in real use" perspective. It isn't like 4/60 or 6.7% drop in performance, it's more like 4/11 or a 36% drop in cutting performance, more particularly in edge rolling. This stuff is hard to quantify of course, as you can get swamped by differences in steel microstructure and carbide content, blade grind, edge thickness, hollow vs. flat, etc.
Click to expand...

Good points. Thanks for the tip on the Wayne Goddard book!

Matthew
 
The Rockwell scale is based on the depth of penetration of a shero-conical shaped penetrater. The actual hardness, based on resistance to indentation is more closely related to the volume of the indentation than the depth and the volume increases with the square of the depth of penetration. For example, a Rc of 60.5 is 10% higher than a Rc of 55, but the actual hardness is about 20% higher.

Edge roll is complicated, it is most closely related to bending strength, which is more closely linked to impact strength than hardness or tensile strength.


-Frank
 
Originally posted by frank k
Edge roll is complicated, it is most closely related to bending strength, which is more closely linked to impact strength than hardness or tensile strength.

-Frank
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Please elaborate... this would imply that extremely "tough" (high impact strength, i.e. high Charpy) blades would resist edge roll significantly better than, say, stainless blades.
 
rdangerer,

Sorry for the confusion I should have been clearer. I was attempting to address this statement:


Originally posted by rdangerer
Is impaction strictly what happens to a knife blade? Nope. You get both pure impaction (envision hitting a staple as you push cut through something), but also a bending type of deflection (envision scraping paint with a knife blade).... so maybe tensile or some kind of bending strength should be measured also for blade edge performance metric. Few of us can or try to keep a knife blade perfectly perpendicular to the surface we are cutting in real use.
Click to expand...


Edge roll is complicated in that it involves the amount of applied force, how it is applied (shock or steady load and direction of the force in relation to the edge), the geometry of the edge/blade, the hardness level, and the bending and/or impact strength of the blade steel. The point I intended to make in my mangled statement was that it is bending - not direct tensile strength, that is more important here; and that bending strength is related more to impact strength than to tensile strength.

The bend fracture test is similar to the Charpy impact test except for the lack of the shock loading and the notch. If the Charpy numbers are higher, the bending strength is generally higher as well (although not in proportional amounts). Hardness is not proportional to impact strength, instead impact strength is maximized at a certain hardness - if you increase or decrease the hardness form this point you reduce impact strength. Hardness is proportional to tensile strength - increase the hardness (based on the volume of the indent not the depth) and the tensile strength increases very nearly proportionally. Given equal hardness, steels with the higher impact and bending strength should roll less, all else being equal. If there is a difference in hardness, the harder steel should have less plastic deformation (including roll).

When I said edge roll I should have said edge damage because stainless steels seem to chip more than roll than would non stainless steels at similar hardness levels. My guess is that the stainless steels generally have less of a spread between their ultimate strength and their yield strength than do non stainless steels at the same hardness. At the risk of oversimplifying, you basically get a roll when the yield point is exceeded, and a chip when the ultimate or fatigue limit is reached. If I am wrong here, someone please let me know!


-Frank
 
Great steel discussion! I really appreciate the furthering of my understanding in this area thanks to fellow forumites. Can't get enough of it.

Originally posted by Buzzbait
The Military is butt ugly. The shape is odd and the G10 scales are designed for utility instead of aesthetics...
...The eccentric pivot is a big plus.
Click to expand...

I thought Spyderco's were generally ugly - until I held and used the Delica. Now I see the the way form follows function as an aesthetically appealing feature and beautiful to behold - especially on the Military. I love the lightness (weight) and size ratio of the thing.

Baraqyal also mentioned the eccentric pivot which I have on my Starmate. What is the function of this and why is it a plus?

Cheers

Kallisti.
 
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