Boker's China made 440c

[Hiro-kun]

Boker's official marketing rep here says straight-up that Magnum knives are 440A and Boker Plus use 440C.

Boker's late warranty and repair specialist Terry Trahan also said likewise.

It is likely that Boker, when they were establishing deals with their Chinese manufacturers, required that the blade steel meet the standards for 440A and 440C, instead of using the original 8Cr13Mov or 9Cr18Mo. There is no reason that Chinese steelmakers wouldn't be able to do this and no one has provided a shred of evidence that Boker's steel is anything other than what they claim to be.

 

[buckfynn]

Boker's official marketing rep here says straight-up that Magnum knives are 440A and Boker Plus use 440C.

Boker's late warranty and repair specialist Terry Trahan also said likewise.

It is likely that Boker, when they were establishing deals with their Chinese manufacturers, required that the blade steel meet the standards for 440A and 440C, instead of using the original 8Cr13Mov or 9Cr18Mo. There is no reason that Chinese steelmakers wouldn't be able to do this and no one has provided a shred of evidence that Boker's steel is anything other than what they claim to be.

And I have no reason to doubt that the steel reported by the manufactures used by Enlan and Sanrenmu are same as in the Boker Magnum knives.

One thing is for certain for Boker Magnum to describe the steel used in their rebranded knives as "440 Stainless" is totally meaningless. Is it 440A, 440B, 440C, 7Cr14MoV, 8Cr13MoV, 9Cr13MoV, or something else? So what chemical composition is this "440 stainless" mystery steel? It could be just about anything under such a vague label.

I also wonder what the steel used in my Boker Plus Vox Rold actually happens to be? Boker Plus calls it D2. But is it ASNI D2, Bohler-Uddeholm D2, Crucible CPM D2, or the so called chinese D2 equivalent Cr12Mo1V1 or something else? <Shrug> I don't really know.

 

[Hiro-kun]

And I have no reason to doubt that the steel reported by the manufactures used by Enlan and Sanrenmu are same as in the Boker Magnum knives.

There are a few good reasons to doubt that:

1. Boker itself has stated that they are 440 steel and not the 8Cr13Mov used in the Enlan and SRM versions.
2. Boker also identifies the use of 8Cr13Mov in their other products (a Boker Plus knife, no less). This proves that they don't relabel Chinese steels as something else in order to mislead consumers.
3. No one here has objectively tested Boker Magnum knives to determine the actual alloy used.

It seems like you put a great deal of weight on speculation when you formed your opinion on Boker.

One thing is for certain for Boker Magnum to describe the steel used in their rebranded knives as "440 Stainless" is totally meaningless. Is it 440A, 440B, 440C, 7Cr14MoV, 8Cr13MoV, 9Cr13MoV, or something else? So what chemical composition is this "440 stainless" mystery steel? It could be just about anything under such a vague label.

Again, Boker's marketing rep here said it's 440A. Our favourite knife steel reference, Zknives, says:

If your knife is marked with just "440", it is probably the less expensive 440A; if a manufacturer had used the more expensive 440C, he'd want to advertise that.

I also wonder what the steel used in my Boker Plus Vox Rold actually happens to be? Boker Plus calls it D2. But is it ASNI D2, Bohler-Uddeholm D2, Crucible CPM D2, or the so called chinese D2 equivalent Cr12Mo1V1 or something else? <Shrug> I don't really know.

"D2" is also an AISI standard. Crucible doesn't list their D2 under their powder steels and says it meets the AISI standard and Bohler-Uddeholm also claims to meet the standard. If both companies manufacture D2 to spec correctly, what difference does it make if they don't identify the manufacturer? It doesn't seem like either company make D2 better than their competitors.

 

[buckfynn]

Hiro-kun we are starting to go around in circles here in this discussion. The bottom line is if one believes Boker or not. And I do not. I respect your opinion that you believe Boker even though I disagree with it.

And as far as I am concerned your last post proves nothing either. But I am done belaboring the point of this conversation.

 

[Hiro-kun]

Hiro-kun we are starting to go around in circles here in this discussion. The bottom line is if one believes Boker or not. And I do not. I respect your opinion that you believe Boker even though I disagree with it.

And as far as I am concerned your last post proves nothing either. But I am done belaboring the point of this conversation.

Your lack of trust in Boker is based purely on seeing the original Enlan/Sanrenmu knives made with 8Cr13MoV and then assuming that Boker's Magnum knives must be mislabelled because … one can't possibly make a knife with a slightly different steel and still have it look the same? This, to me, appears to be the reasoning you use to distrust Boker and is why I do not find your opinion on Boker's alleged duplicity at all compelling. I have yet to see any evidence that Boker is or has ever been less than honest in describing their products. If you know something about Boker that hasn't been mentioned here yet, feel free to share.

 

[buckfynn]

Your lack of trust in Boker is based purely on seeing the original Enlan/Sanrenmu knives made with 8Cr13MoV and then assuming that Boker's Magnum knives must be mislabelled because … one can't possibly make a knife with a slightly different steel and still have it look the same? This, to me, appears to be the reasoning you use to distrust Boker and is why I do not find your opinion on Boker's alleged duplicity at all compelling. I have yet to see any evidence that Boker is or has ever been less than honest in describing their products. If you know something about Boker that hasn't been mentioned here yet, feel free to share.

My lack of trust comes directly from Boker. As I already mentioned earlier for Boker to describe a product as "440 stainless" and have any credibility is lacking. If Boker is really using 440A then it should be stamped on their knives but they don't.

And I am not interested in anything a Boker marketing rep has to say. Undoubtedly he is just parroting what management has told him to say.

 

[ichor]

And I am not interested in anything a Boker marketing rep has to say. Undoubtedly he is just parroting what management has told him to say.

+1 Proof isn't proof just...."because I say so". LOL

 

[Hiro-kun]

My lack of trust comes directly from Boker. As I already mentioned earlier for Boker to describe a product as "440 stainless" and have any credibility is lacking. If Boker is really using 440A then it should be stamped on their knives but they don't.

I've never taken "440 stainless" to mean anything other than "whatever 440 grade was cheapest or most available at time of manufacture". Boker may have decided that low prices and high volume is their strategy with these knives and needs to give the manufacturer the flexibility to use whatever 440 grade they can get that minimizes cost and keeps production up. I think of it as akin to the product named "vegetable oil". The ingredient list indicates that it could be pure soybean oil or a blend of soybean and various other edible plant oils, whatever allows the manufacturer use up existing supplies or meet demand. This is why I don't see "440 stainless" as necessarily misleading unless the steel composition does not conform to any 440 grade.

As far as I know, Boker only identifies their Magnum line in such a fashion. Also, given the prices of Magnum products, I doubt that anyone seriously considering purchasing these care whether it's 440A, B, or C.

And I am not interested in anything a Boker marketing rep has to say. Undoubtedly he is just parroting what management has told him to say.

Doesn't mean that it's wrong.

 

[Czechmate]

Both of these little Boker folders in "440C" have performed really well for me; the Blues still has the factory edge - I just keep buffing it and it gets hair popping sharp. :thumbup: The Elegance has been reground (took off a lot of metal with my ken onion worksharp) to a much thinner convex edge and also has performed quite well.

 

[leghog]

The Boker Magnum series in notorious for rebranding other manufactures knives. Below I will list the steel from the specs of the original manufacturer and Boker Magnum.

Enlan EL06 9Cr13Mov -> Same knife rebranded as Boker Magnum X-Over "440 Stainless"
Enlan EL01 8Cr13MoV -> Same knife rebranded as Boker Magnum A-Stan "440 Stainless"
Enlan M011 8Cr13MoV-> Same knife rebranded as Boker Magnum Baron "440 Stainless"
Sanrenmu T08 8Cr13MoV -> Same knife rebranded as Boker Magnum Timberman "440 Stainless" (At present the T08 is using 12C27)
Sanrenmu 728 8Cr13MoV-> Same knife rebranded as Boker Magnum Satin Leaf "440 Stainless"

Since Boker has a habit of renaming chinese steel with their Magnum brand, I have absolutely no reason to trust them with being transparent and honest with any of their other brands.

Do I own any Boker knives? Yes. Do I trust Boker? No.

Which is another reason why I no longer consider Boker knives in my purchase decisions. Not long ago Boker wouldn't even be straight forward and truly open about where their materials or knives originated. You could find out, but you had to really to dig to find out. Not sure if they've corrected that now or not, but that's when they lost me as a customer and recommender. I carried a Boker red bone pen knife daily for ten years and recommended them quite often. Not any longer.

 

[dkb45]

My lack of trust comes directly from Boker. As I already mentioned earlier for Boker to describe a product as "440 stainless" and have any credibility is lacking. If Boker is really using 440A then it should be stamped on their knives but they don't.

And I am not interested in anything a Boker marketing rep has to say. Undoubtedly he is just parroting what management has told him to say.

Your cynicism is both unfounded and concerning, considering we are talking about one of the oldest companies around. The Magnum line is not for the knife nut, the steel used and quality is less than superior, so 440A means about as much as simply saying stainless. Many makers don't even label their steels used in cheap knives.

A very select few companies have used 440C or 440B under the moniker 440, so if it is just labeled 440 you can safely assume it is 440A.

 

[NG VI]

Perhaps, but they can be counted on to be difficult to get the truth out of (at least occasionally). As an example, not long ago it was very difficult to determine the country of origin for some of their lines and some of their models while doing research. Perhaps it still is. Also if Boker advertises and stamps a knife steel as being 440C but it isn't, isn't that a lie even if the alloy used is similar to 440C? Let's at least be honest about it --- it certainly appears as if Boker is (or was) simply playing marketing games in an attempt to separate you from your money.

440C is a designation of a subtype of 440-series steel, but the designation isn't a brand name, it's a range of ingredients and manufacturing processes.

There's no need to be hostile to the common practice of regional nomenclature for various products.

440C isn't a finely tuned powder steel or a specialized alloy, it's a pretty generic knife steel.

 

[mycough]

These threads have popped up numerous times. They have one thing in common, they lead me to not consider knives by boost branded "440C" . I am a knife nut, my only 440c knife is a custom by Duck Childress here on BF. I have given away all my knives made out of sketchy steel even though I can get them very sharp.
Some of the 440C bokers are very attractive but that steel designation mystery stops me from hitting that buy now button. There are many nice designs but the one that pops into mind immediately is the Exkelibur. Great looking knife but the choice of 440c or even vg10 shuts me down in my tracks.
There are many other designs that catch my eye in their line up, really great looking knives, unfortunately they will never begin my line up because of nagging doubt
about the steel.
Russ

 

[dkb45]

These threads have popped up numerous times. They have one thing in common, they lead me to not consider knives by boost branded "440C" . I am a knife nut, my only 440c knife is a custom by Duck Childress here on BF. I have given away all my knives made out of sketchy steel even though I can get them very sharp.
Some of the 440C bokers are very attractive but that steel designation mystery stops me from hitting that buy now button. There are many nice designs but the one that pops into mind immediately is the Exkelibur. Great looking knife but the choice of 440c or even vg10 shuts me down in my tracks.
There are many other designs that catch my eye in their line up, really great looking knives, unfortunately they will never begin my line up because of nagging doubt
about the steel.
Russ

Where is all of this cynicism coming from? Böker does not mislabel steels, 440 is 440A (common in the industry), 440C is 440C, VG-10 is VG-10. They are a very old and reputable company, and don't deserve anywhere near the staggering skepticism and cynicism they are receiving.

 

[buckfynn]

Your cynicism is both unfounded and concerning, considering we are talking about one of the oldest companies around. The Magnum line is not for the knife nut, the steel used and quality is less than superior, so 440A means about as much as simply saying stainless. Many makers don't even label their steels used in cheap knives.

A very select few companies have used 440C or 440B under the moniker 440, so if it is just labeled 440 you can safely assume it is 440A.

Here is another account of Boker Magnum relabeling the steel on their rebranded knives.

I will add this. I owned a Timber Wolf Cactus Bowie. It is now sold as the Boker Elk Hunter. I paid $9.95 for it. It was a gorgeous knife. Fit and finish were flawless, so I know that the quality was fine on that particular knife. I kinda wished I would have kept it and tested it's performance. This particular TW was sold by several unscrupulous Ebay dealers as a custom and I watched quite a few times as they were sold for ten or twenty times their cost. I, unfortunately, am a bit too moralistic and sold mine for a few dollars on the exchange.

Another interesting thing to note is that the TW knives now sold by Boker were listed as 420 when sold by BudK, but are listed as 440 from Boker.

So I guess for Boker Magnum, 420 is "close enough" for Boker to call it "440 stainless" in this instance. For a company to use such tactics is deplorable whether it be their least expensive line or not.

 

[Etna]

Where is all of this cynicism coming from? Böker does not mislabel steels, 440 is 440A (common in the industry), 440C is 440C, VG-10 is VG-10. They are a very old and reputable company, and don't deserve anywhere near the staggering skepticism and cynicism they are receiving.

Whether they mislabel the steel used in their Magnum lineup is something only Boker will know.

See, I own more than 50 Sanrenmu and Enlan knives, so seeing which ones Boker selected for relabeling under the Magnum brand is fairly obvious. Now, most Chinese brands are fairly standard in their choice of steel; it's almost always 3cr13, 5cr11mov or 8cr13mov. The more well-known brands like Enlan and Sanrenmu use 8cr13mov for their entire lineup, while other not-so-prominent brands like Harnds or Tekut will employ 3cr13 or 5cr11mov. So when Boker selects a few SRM or Enlans for relabeling, we already know for a fact that those knives were originally produced with 8cr13mov blades.

What we do not know is whether Boker's contract or agreement with SRM and Enlan requires that SRM and Enlan replace the 8cr13mov blades with 440A or 440C blades. And anyway, when a Boker Backpacker costs US$17 while its original Enlan counterpart, the M011, costs anywhere between US$8 - $12, the whole discussion becomes moot. Paying up to 1.5x or 2x more for the Magnum just doesn't make sense (to me) when the original 8cr13mov template from Enlan performs so close to 440 and aus8.

 

[killgar]

Here is another account of Boker Magnum relabeling the steel on their rebranded knives.


So I guess for Boker Magnum, 420 is "close enough" for Boker to call it "440 stainless" in this instance. For a company to use such tactics is deplorable whether it be their least expensive line or not.

That thread doesn't prove anything.

It's entirely plausible that Timber Wolf made their version of that knife (Cactus Bowie) using 420, and that Boker made their version (Elk Hunter) using 440 in order to meet Bokers standards.

The fact that Timber Wolf identified the steel of their Cactus Bowie as 420, and Boker identifies the steel of their Elk Hunter as 440 certainly doesn't prove that Boker is committing a fraud by misrepresenting it's blade steel. Just because both knives are visually identical doesn't mean they are made of the same steel.