"BOSS Knives"

I think that we are confusing Collaborations with Knockoffs.
There are many elements that make up what we would call a good knife. A few are:

1-Design = Appearance, How does it feel in your hand, Its suitability for a particular job, etc.

2-Material = Its suitability for a particular job, Hardness, Grind, etc.

3-Fit and Finish = Quality of workmanship, Tolerances, Level of finish, etc.

With a Custom Knife all of the above are as perfect as the Maker can make them.
Usually without regard to cost.
“How good can I make this knife?”

With a knockoff all you get is the Design / Appearance. Everything else is made as cheaply as possible. Without regard to durability, fit and finish or anything else except:
“How cheap can I make this knife?”

With a collaboration you are getting a blend. “How good can I make this knife and still price it where it will sell and allow a reasonable profit”

The issue is not where a knife is made. Its what is the goal when making it? The Chinese can do quality work. Look at the new Kershaw Onion line. Nice knives.
The customer that places the order with the factory (be it in the US or China) determines what level of quality he wants.
Collaborations are a win, win . They give Joe Six-pack the opportunity to own and use the design of a professional Knife Maker. Rather than a design dreamed up by the factory.
A successful collaboration not only brings the Maker cash flow but notoriety and future orders.

Makers, if I have got this wrong let me know.
BS
 
Here is my .02 worth and it is only worth that much. working in law enforcement and haveing spent my time in the military i have learned a few lessons on blades. as a precursor to this i should let you know that i do own a custom bagwell hells belle a couple of strider's and a maddog. with that knowledg let me tell you i usually carry a ontario belle, a mission mpk or a cold steel of varying styles. the reason is that if i have to cut a door hinge out in a trailer house or dig a hole or cut wire or just basically abuse a knife it really makes me think when i take my $350 strider out or my $1200 dollar bagwell and all i am going to do is abuse the blade. after all it is the blade design that i am looking for. I ordered a parasite for this reason and in the next year i will order a mid-tech raven from rob hopefully. now the other side of this is my wife bought me a maddog atak2 and the first time i took it out on a lab raid my wife was ticked that i took my anniversary present. the upshot was she bought me a mpk to use. now this same thinking does not apply to firearms!!!!!!!! if you feel i am way off base with this let me know.
 
That you care not as to whether or not you ever "make a dime out of this project" seems rather odd to me, as does the implication that you doing this as a 'returned favor' to Mike and/or Kevin too...but that's your business, as is your relationship with them, and isn't my concern.
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Melvin, I take care of my friends and they take care of me, what is so hard to understand about that? :confused: I am really not motivated by money, if I can maintain my current humble lifestyle and have some fun I am happy. Simple as that.

So, my unanswered question remains, "And...what (positive) impact, if any, will Mike's knives have on other knife makers here in the US that don't/won't sign up to be on his 'team'?" (I'm afraid I don't agree with your premise Rob, so I'm asking the same question, again)
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I answered the question already for myself, if that isnt good enough I dont know what to tell you. I personally tend not to make things complicated, so if you are looking for an argument look elsewhere.
 
It looks like Mike's venture may end up being successful, and I wish you all the best.

I'm looking forward to seeing the knives too!

Mel.

Nope, not looking for an argument Rob, just an answer. ;)
 
"And...what (positive) impact, if any, will Mike's knives have on other knife makers here in the US that don't/won't sign up to be on his 'team'?" NONE just like with those that dont do collaberations with benchmade, camillus, buck, tops, kershaw, microtech, berreta, al mar, spyderco, or any other factory produceing knives. When this line first came up mike had a contest for people that wanted to design knives to send in thier work and get a contract if thier design was going to be produced and david winch won and his knife is in the boss lineup now, mike is still looking for designs if a maker thinks he has something to offer then all he has to do is send a design to mike and maybe it will get picked to be produced. The boss line is about making good working knives at a price that we all can afford and so far mikes succeeding at doing just that.
 
Mel, you should write a new book on how to win friends and influence enemies:p ;)

I guess I dont understand. Why does Mikes business have to have ANY positive impact on the knife manufactures/makers in the US? Anyone that is ONLY in the market for a $50 knife ISNT in the market for a $500 Simonich or Rinaldi they will wait a year or more for.. As I said before the knife buyer might as well know your name from the ground up..
Knives are like anything, you get your feet wet with inexpensive ones, and the disease grows from there!;) MANY so called American knife manufactures are having lots of things done oversee's, but they dont tell you that..
I would bet your first Hot Rod wasnt your best or most expensive one right? ANd I bet you started with SKS's and AK's before you went into AR's and HK's right? Same thing here..

Collaborations for the most part are not all about making money.. Unless your Ken Onion, you arent going to pay your bills with collabs. BUT these companies promote your name in advertisments, and just the fact that they are using your design, speaks to the knife buying public about you as a maker..

I totally agree with Rob about Mike Turber, and Spark.. Without Bladeforums, ALOT of our success would never have come, or would have come MUCH slower!
I have only been to THREE shows in my career so far. Just about ALL my business has been generated from forums like BF, KFC, USN, Hoodlums, RAT,etc..
If my project with Mike nets me nothing, its no loss to me.. Its not going to hurt, and can only help.. Rob and I have talked about this a few times before, and we both agree that without the exposure, Mike afforded us here, we would not be where we are today, and I bet many makers will say the same thing..

The whole China thing DOES leave a bad taste in my mouth, as I am sure it does for many..
BUT they are gonna MAKE your designs WITH or WITHOUT your blessing, I would rather get the credit for the design, than it being out there with no name at all.. Thats what I think anyway..
 
Mel, you should write a new book on how to win friends and influence enemies
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Ya think? ;)

I'm trying to influence Rob into letting me come up and shoot his full auto toys...but at this rate, it looks like being his target holder is as close as I'm going to get...lol :eek:

To quantify my thoughts...

I 'thought' that Mike was quilty of 'borrowing' designs. That doesn't appear to be the case, and I stand corrected.

Yes, I too am concerned about having knives made in China...I still see the Chinese government as our enemy...but that's my problem right?

And, I am somewhat concerned that 'the' Chinese, once they figure out how to make a decent knife, won't have any need for BOSS, or it's associates...(I'm looking out for ya here big guy) ;)

I'm concerned that good quality inexpensive knives from China will have a negative impact on a good portion of our domestic cutlery hobby and its businesses...In other words, if other makers can't compete with the Chinease working wage, we may 'only' see knives made in China someday.

(Heck, maybe Mike is just a trendsetter here, and the other makers will just have to follow suit to stay financially viable?)

Maybe I have concerns where I should have none? Are low cost imports going to have a lasting negative impact on makers/businesses here? Only time will tell... Maybe I shouldn't worry about it, as it's not 'my' business.

(You guys are getting $500 for a knife now? Hmmm, yep, those BOSS knives are looking better by the minute...lol) :p

Is the general knife purchasing public as savvy as 'Forumites'? I doubt it. Are they, on average, going to use BOSS knives to step up the ladder? I doubt that too.

That your business grew through links to the forums, of that there's no doubt...but that's because we're enthusiasts here, not because we're moving into 'nicer knives'...IMNSHO.

I dunno, did I have a point here? I guess not... :confused:

Like I said before, I wish you all well, and the best of luck...

Mel

-edited fo' clarity-
 
I'm trying to influence Rob into letting me come up and shoot his full auto toys...but at this rate, it looks like being his target holder is as close as I'm going to get...lol
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LMAO! :p Not at all Melvin, you just like to argue and I dont! :)

I'm concerned that good quality inexpensive knives from China will have a negative impact on a good portion of our domestic cutlery hobby and its businesses...In other words, if other makers can't compete with the Chinease working wage, we may 'only' see knives made in China someday.
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Melvin, you would be very surprised to find out how many well known respected brands are made there, but no marking to show it. Many peoples favorite working user knives are made there. No, I dont care much for the Chinese way of doing business either. :yawn:

And what is with all the winking going on? :confused: :eek: :)
 
If I had my way, I wouldnt buy a DAMN thing from China!! BUT I like Toasters, TV's and cordless phones as much as the next guy:D
Just TRY to go into Wally World and NOT buy something from China!! We buy things EVERYDAY from there! Cant draw the line in the sand with knives can ya?

There will ALWAYS be people who demand the best, and as we all KNOW the BEST dont come from China..
If it stops some of the BLATANT stealing of our designs, its a good thing.. If a 16 year old kid who wants to buy a $50 knife with his yard cutting wages, can buy a knife I designed thats a GOOD thing... If that kid grows up and owns a landscaping business and buys a $500 Armageddon I made by hand THATS a good thing!
I could be wrong, it has happened..But if you want to stop the the Chinese invasion of products to this country, you might as well try to empty the ocean with a table spoon...



:D :D
 
you might as well try to empty the ocean with a table spoon...
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Trace, remember we were talking about my being rather insulated from some things? Well buddy I see the ocean 3 years ago f0or the first time and I got to say it is just like Prickly Pear creek behind the house cept you cant piss across it! :D

By the way, you are making way way too much sense here.........:)
 
I have found this discussion very very interesting. I'd like to share some thoughts on how "custom collabs" affect the custom knife world. When I first started college some four years ago I had a Gerber EZ-Out in ATS-34 (I splurged for the really good steel). I couldn't imagine spending more than $50 on a knife. Then a friend showed me his Spyderco Wegner, and I got one of those. I did a little searching on the internet and found out that Tim Wegner was only 45 minutes away from me in Tacoma, WA! Then I found out that Spyderco had other "custom collabs" with other knifemakers. I went to a custom knife show having never seen a custom knife before. I saw people like Bob Lum, Jess Horn, and many other makers whose names I recognized only from the Spyderco website.

Fast forward to now, I've got this huge addiction to handground steel, and am proud to call many knifemakers my friends. I think without custom collabs the run of the mill knife user might never find out about custom knives. Mike's line-up include some well recognized makers, as well as makers who the "average" person may never have heard of.

~Mitch
 
Mitch YOU make my point perfectly!! Thanks bud!
Rob yeah yer a bit insulated from the WHOLE world thing, BUT thats why I Luv ya so much man!!! Gonna be a BLAST in Vegas my brother!!!! We gonna be the FIRST people ever kicked out of Lost Wages I think..HAHAHAHAHA...Good thing we have GREAT buds that will post bail!!! MY drinking shirt is Red 2 Go!!!!:D
 
Well Trace,I wasnt exactlykicked out of Vegas, but there is this Velet thing there was was rather embarrasing to me, but I did leave voluntarily! :D
 
"Gun Face!"....now, what do I win? A new Ti 'Spork' so I can try to empty the ocean? :p

Still laughing,

Mel
 
Just got back from camping and it seems like my point is being made.

Melvin,

Enjoy this land of opportunity because many others can't. I am in the game with everyone here who believes that the Chinese government is the problem, NOT the people of China. You will probably not meet a more polite group of people than the Chinese. How many times have you heard of a Chinese guy robbing a store? Mass murder? or any crime for that matter? It just does not happen as much as other groupls because of the way they are brought up. This is not to say there system is better, just different. The people there need work so they work for a living making things we buy. They in NO WAY have any clue that many of the items they are making are copies of items we made here first. They really don't. The only people who know are those who own the factory and make the tooling.

Now what I am trying to do is reverse that mode of thought in my own small way. We have 228,000 knives in stock that will never be ordered again. They will ALL be liquidated over at Ebay over the next 3 months. All of the money generated will go into tooling and marketing for BOSS and LILE. So I have to move a ton of these knock offs out the door to make room for the new stuff and new marketing plan I put in place. 3 Factories are ready to make our product and we are hoping to replace nearly 100% of their production with BOSS and LILE. I have to do a little dirty work here to get to the good and just the other day I convinced our partners to throw away tooling that was made to knock off a famous maker who is now on board with us (Darrel Ralph) and the company had an order in house for 3,600 pieces. Now that is truly progress, albeit small, progress none the less.

So behind the scenes progress is being made. Right now we need to concentrate on the good, not the bad and move foarward much like Taiwan did a few years ago when they were the #1 source for knock offs.

China is just a bigger problem and may take longer and I am only 1 man right now. One thing I do guarantee is when we hit the Shot Show you will here a slight rumble here in Florida. Plus my booth is set up to look like a bar! Rob and the gang will feel right at home :)

Stay tuned guys, I will keep you all up to date even with the bad news as I can take a lickin, but bet your ass I will keep on tickin :D
 
Great thread! I think some great points have been make by all (yeah you too Melvin...lol)..., and I'm glad you asked the questions. I do share a concern for what the bigger picture will be once Mike manages his primary goal (which I think he will do). Down the road a bit.., I'm fearful that the governmental aspects may be a sticking point..., but I'm certainly in support of Mike giving it a whirl...

Thanks for the thoughtful posts by all...


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
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