Bought an old katana

[the possum]

I already posted this over on the nihonto message board, but figured it wouldn't hurt to show it off here as well, and maybe see if anyone else could venture a guess as to its age, etc.

I bought this sword at the estate auction of a WWII veteran. It has 2 narrow fullers on the front, and one wide one on the back. The blade is a little over 27" long, and it's gracefully light- almost petite.

It has some nice fittings; I really like the tsuba. It's copper, with a gilded dragon weaving in and out through waves.

The only marking I can find is "ichi", but given its location the other guys are certain it was added later.

Unfortunately, someone broke off the tip of the kissaki, but the other guys think a good polisher might be able to save it.

When I first picked it up, the grain in the steel and active hamon really caught my eye.

At this point, I'd like to get it to shinsa at the Chicago sword show coming up at the end of April, but this really conflicts with my work schedule, so I'm hoping to find a collector in the Saint Louis/ southern Illinois area who's going, and might be willing to take this sword along. Primarily, I'd like to find out if it would be worth the cost of restoration.

 

[NihontoEd]

I read your post on NMB, and agree with what they said in that the kissaki most likely can be fixed by a trained polisher and the "ichi" character was probably added later.

One thing which I didn't see addressed related to it being signed "ichi" as in Ichimonji, is that the shinsa team may reject it as "gimei" or false signature if they deem it not ichimonji work. Therefore you would not receive papers after paying a fee for submission to the shinsa. I can't remember about this particular group of the NTHK, but the NPO branch is good about giving information regarding their thoughts on who the maker may be, though you still would not receive papers until the mei was removed and the sword resubmitted.

Keep in mind too, that the better the state of polish, the better the shinsa team can see every detail giving them a much greater chance of getting their attribution correct.

If you want to keep it, and the cost of restoration would cause you to have to sell it, then there isn't much point. Primarily because you may not be able to sell it or you could lose money as it may not be worth the restoration costs. Keep in mind this is not a simple polish job, it will be more expensive to have the kissaki reshaped. Also, you may can use the old habaki, but you will need a new shirasaya for it. After polish you can not place it back into the old saya.

 

[kaotikross]

Should this sword also have the Kiku? Or are some Ichimonji without it?

 

[the possum]

Southern Comfort-
Yeah, I started looking at the forms for submitting it to shinsa, and wondered the same thing. What's the point if it will be immediately rejected for the poor condition and gimei? I'm getting the impression I need to bring it to a show in person and get some opinions on it, to see if it's worth restoring, and possibly have that done before formally submitting it for shinsa.

If you want to keep it, and the cost of restoration would cause you to have to sell it, then there isn't much point.

I'm still struggling with this. I may just have to hang onto it for a few years until I feel more comfortable in my financial situation. Then maybe I could justify spending the money to get it fixed up (again, if knowledgeable folks think there's a good chance it would be worth it). I am a rank beginner when it comes to collecting nihonto, so I can use the time to study, which is always easier with an example in hand. Maybe in the mean time I'll find a Juyo Token in perfect polish for a couple hundred bucks.

I think the old habaki would still work, since the base of the blade is in pretty good shape, and the tang is thicker about an inch back from the machi anyway. In other words, if you made a habaki to fit the blade tighter, you wouldn't be able to slip it up over the thickest part of the tang. It probably needs a shirasaya anyway, since the tsuka core is completely broken, and it does not have a saya to start with. It came stuck in an old gunto scabbard which does not fit properly, and damaged the mouth of the habaki a bit.

This brings up another issue I'll have to ponder. I would prefer to have a sword that could be used, mounted in full koshirae (wouldn't we all? ). If I go that route, would it still be worthwhile to have a shirasaya made in addition to the koshirae, or just save the cost of the resting scabbard and go straight to full mounts?

 

[NihontoEd]

No Kikumon.

Yeah, I started looking at the forms for submitting it to shinsa, and wondered the same thing. What's the point if it will be immediately rejected for the poor condition and gimei?

Many times swords are submitted to shinsa in less than pristine condition. Generally, this is done with signed blades. The reasoning behind this is simple, if a signature is deemed shoshin(good), that helps one decide whether or not it is worth restoration costs, if it is deemed gimei, there may not much or any point in spending more on it. On the other hand if the shinsa teams says, “it is gimei, but we think it is the work of highly rated smith X” and if the current mei was removed, the sword polished then resubmitted it would most likely paper to X”. Therefore, even though you didn’t get your sword papered, you received valuable information which is beneficial in making future decisions regarding restoration. But note; a different shinsa team may not see it the same way. Keep in mind with ALL shinsa and ALL shinsa organizations, the attributions given are their best guesses, they are not guaranteed. Granted they are the best guesses you will get, but they can and do differ among teams and can change as new information becomes available. I have owned and know of many swords which have received “papers” to different sword smiths from different shinsa teams.

I'm getting the impression I need to bring it to a show in person and get some opinions on it, to see if it's worth restoring, and possibly have that done before formally submitting it for shinsa.

For the uninitiated, this can be a double edged sword. If you take it and start asking opinions, you will get a multitude of opinions and leave more confused that when you got there. At any given show there are no more than 1-3 people I would even consider showing it too for opinions. (Remember the old saying about opinions, “they are like a$$holes, everyone has one and they all stink”)

If you want to keep it, and the cost of restoration would cause you to have to sell it, then there isn't much point.
I'm still struggling with this. I may just have to hang onto it for a few years until I feel more comfortable in my financial situation. Then maybe I could justify spending the money to get it fixed up (again, if knowledgeable folks think there's a good chance it would be worth it).

Without looking at it in hand, I feel that it can be restored. Yet, keep in mind this is from a few less than optimal photos.There is no reason why you can’t do it in stages. There will be another shinsa in Tampa 2/2016

I think the old habaki would still work, since the base of the blade is in pretty good shape, and the tang is thicker about an inch back from the machi anyway. In other words, if you made a habaki to fit the blade tighter, you wouldn't be able to slip it up over the thickest part of the tang.

It does look as thought he old habaki would work, it just looks nice when you have a new habaki with new polish and shirasaya. The thickness of the nakago is irrelevant, a new one can be made and will fit. They should not touch the sides, only the top and bottom of the nakago come in contact with the habaki, which is why it works.

It probably needs a shirasaya anyway, since the tsuka core is completely broken, and it does not have a saya to start with. It came stuck in an old gunto scabbard which does not fit properly, and damaged the mouth of the habaki a bit

Keep in mind that you never return a newly polished swor to an old saya. One grain of sand lodged inside can ruin your new and expensive polish.

This brings up another issue I'll have to ponder. I would prefer to have a sword that could be used, mounted in full koshirae (wouldn't we all? ). If I go that route, would it still be worthwhile to have a shirasaya made in addition to the koshirae, or just save the cost of the resting scabbard and go straight to full mounts?

Yes, a koshirae would be nice, but know this, it is much more expensive than shirasaya. If your budget was unlimited, then I would say if you want a koshirae, forget the shirasaya. I suspect however, once you begin pricing koshirae you will come to like shirasaya a lot more Worst case scenario, you can get a shirasaya for now, then over the next few years put together some fittings, save some coin, and have a koshirae made(price them first).

As you are new to this, I do want to point out one other thing. Having a Japanese sword polished is always a gamble! There is always the chance of a large ware or fukure opening up during polish. These flaws can and do hide under the surface at times. They lie patiently until polishing removes enough steel to bring them out. Sometimes if small or if you have chosen a good polisher, they can be manipulated or repaired minimizing the obvious. Other times the polisher may recommend that polishing be stopped at that point. Regardless, they will affect the value.

 

[Kohai999]

Yes, a koshirae would be nice, but know this, it is much more expensive than shirasaya. If your budget was unlimited, then I would say if you want a koshirae, forget the shirasaya. I suspect however, once you begin pricing koshirae you will come to like shirasaya a lot more Worst case scenario, you can get a shirasaya for now, then over the next few years put together some fittings, save some coin, and have a koshirae made(price them first).

As you are new to this, I do want to point out one other thing. Having a Japanese sword polished is always a gamble! There is always the chance of a large ware or fukure opening up during polish. These flaws can and do hide under the surface at times. They lie patiently until polishing removes enough steel to bring them out. Sometimes if small or if you have chosen a good polisher, they can be manipulated or repaired minimizing the obvious. Other times the polisher may recommend that polishing be stopped at that point. Regardless, they will affect the value.

I slightly disagree on the koshirae....if you want antiques, just put in a lot of time at shows and stores, and eventually you can find something workable. For modern, hard to beat Lohman, even if he is crazy.

As far as putting it together, outside of Japan, I have found Randy Black's work to be of top quality in every facet imaginable and extraordinary value.

Agree with everything else you said on polishing, particularly the risks of investing and then finding kizu once the project is started.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[sloth357]

Hmmm, ok so Fred is crazy I spoke with him on the phone a year or two ago and was... confused. I'm about an hour away from his "shop".. I was hoping to walk in and view some items, but NOPE. He wanted specifics and I was in the browse mood.

GL on your project OP!

 

[Kohai999]

Hmmm, ok so Fred is crazy I spoke with him on the phone a year or two ago and was... confused. I'm about an hour away from his "shop".. I was hoping to walk in and view some items, but NOPE. He wanted specifics and I was in the browse mood.

GL on your project OP!

He does/did a lot of his own casting....my personal feeling is that the fumes combined with an already "eccentric" personality(I have known him for over 14 years, and he still doesn't know who I am, or Dan Keffeler or any regular customer, afaik) have left him truly, clinically somewhat deranged.

He has a workshop, not a retail shop. In order to "browse", he needs to start bringing out pieces that he has in different sections of the workshop, which is why you really cannot "browse", it would take hours of his time, with no guarantee of sale. If he is set up at the OKCA show or the Token Kai in SF, THAT would be the place to see his wares assembled and ready for your browsing.

I have been to his shop 2x...the best way to do it is peruse his website first, get an idea of what you want and call him a few days before visiting and tell him what you might be interested in. That way he can gather it together and maybe have some ideas in what directions to go in showing you stuff. He also only takes personal checks or cash, no credit cards last I heard.

He does the best....THE BEST....steel furniture I have ever seen. It has tremendous detail, takes wonderful patina and is fabulously strong. When Lohman stops doing his thing, we have lost at true National Treasure. There are some others starting to work in basics like mokko tsuba and basic fuchi/kashira, but the jump up to even a basic piece from a custom artist like Patrick Hastings is extremely signficant.....CAS Hanwei offers some great stuff, but they still lean towards copper/brass fittings with good casting details and that is not nearly as strong. I spent time in Kyoto and Tokyo doing a lot of looking at work from production houses and custom artisans.

There is no comparison to what we have available here. Antiques were very difficult to find, and even a very basic iron tsuba was $450.00. The production work was flat and lifeless by comparision, and the custom stuff cost what one decent CAS/Hanwei mid-level piece cost in TOTAL(That is for a set of fuchi/kashira in steel(mokko was $900.00 at one store, cheapest I saw) and nice shakudo dragon menuki with gold eyes and some other details($1,000.00). There are wait times to deal with as well if the order needs to be custom made.

On this, I speak from many, many years of frustrating experience. A truly custom setup in Nihonto will take anywhere from 1-3 years if you are lucky.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[NihontoEd]

While not something I would consider on an antique piece, I checked Fred's site and he offers a package deal for polishing and koshirae for $2595. Not a bad price in theory, but I have no idea of the quality of the polish you will receive.

$1495 for koshirae without polish.

http://www.japanese-swords.com/pages/restore.htm

I personally do not recommend or condone using a less than fully trained polisher for an antique blade. The sword in question needs the kissaki reshaped, and I surely would not trust an amateur for this. I can only imagine the disappointment of choosing this option.

An economical option may be to have your sword professionally polished, then mounted later by Fred.
My advise: Do not skimp on the polish. If you have to skimp do it on the koshirae/fittings.

For cheap modern reproductions Fred's fittings are pretty good.

I slightly disagree on the koshirae....if you want antiques, just put in a lot of time at shows and stores, and eventually you can find something workable.

Steven,
Perhaps, as long as you were mounting a sword which was not in new polish. It is never advisable to place a newly polished sword into an old saya. Granted, if you could find one that fit perfectly, one may could be purchased reasonably.

In truth, I personally have found this approach to be much more difficult than it sounds. Over the last twenty-five years I have attempted this for myself and others numerous times without much success. Reason being each koshirae or shirasaya is custom made for a specific piece and no two are exactly alike. Even if a saya is found to match, the odds of the tsuka fitting properly and the mekugi ana matching up are astronomical. Just my own findings, perhaps you have been more lucky than myself

When you consider the costs of traveling to sword shows to look for a koshirae, I still think a shirasaya ($600 aprox.) or Fred's services(koshirae $1495) may be the most cost effective in the long run. Just my opinion, OP will have to decide for himself.

 

[Kohai999]

While not something I would consider on an antique piece, I checked Fred's site and he offers a package deal for polishing and koshirae for $2595. Not a bad price in theory, but I have no idea of the quality of the polish you will receive.

$1495 for koshirae without polish.

http://www.japanese-swords.com/pages/restore.htm

I personally do not recommend or condone using a less than fully trained polisher for an antique blade. The sword in question needs the kissaki reshaped, and I surely would not trust an amateur for this. I can only imagine the disappointment of choosing this option.

An economical option may be to have your sword professionally polished, then mounted later by Fred.
My advise: Do not skimp on the polish. If you have to skimp do it on the koshirae/fittings.

For cheap modern reproductions Fred's fittings are pretty good.



Steven,
Perhaps, as long as you were mounting a sword which was not in new polish. It is never advisable to place a newly polished sword into an old saya. Granted, if you could find one that fit perfectly, one may could be purchased reasonably.

In truth, I personally have found this approach to be much more difficult than it sounds. Over the last twenty-five years I have attempted this for myself and others numerous times without much success. Reason being each koshirae or shirasaya is custom made for a specific piece and no two are exactly alike. Even if a saya is found to match, the odds of the tsuka fitting properly and the mekugi ana matching up are astronomical. Just my own findings, perhaps you have been more lucky than myself

When you consider the costs of traveling to sword shows to look for a koshirae, I still think a shirasaya ($600 aprox.) or Fred's services(koshirae $1495) may be the most cost effective in the long run. Just my opinion, OP will have to decide for himself.

SC,

Please allow me to clarify....

1. I agree that the koshirae must be done AFTER the polish.
2. The only decent polishers I currently know in the US are Ted Tenold and Keith Larman. Ted MIGHT be interested in a project like this, it would be pretty expensive....Over 2K for sure, and that is lowballing it.
3. Randy Black makes excellent saya, both shirasaya and lacquered saya....and once a sword was polished, as you said, I wouldn't ever put it back in the old saya. What I would do with the old saya if it was in decent condition, was offer it to fellow iaidoka for iaito saya replacement.
4. I get to a lot of shows over the course of a year(5-7), and there is usually someone at a gun/knife show with a case full of "stuff". If the price is right, I'll pick up any menuki, fuchi/kashira or kojiri that catch my eye. I also save decent furniture from swords that get retired or dismantled due to serious kizu. So I have been able to get my pieces done over the years without too much wasted time/effort. It's like playing 3D chess, though....you have to be alert and on your game constantly.
5. There is nothing CHEAP about Lohman's product, it is however, very reasonably priced.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson