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Bow & Drill : Chapter 1 "close but no cigar"
- Thread starter SkunkWerX
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Good post, Codger. Just want to add if you use bird nests (and probably mouse nests as well) you are not supposed to breathe in the smoke - apparently some nasties can be carried on the smoke, otherwise excellent tinder.
Doc
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Does mouse poop have has much water in it as Elephant poop? Can I gather up handfuls and squeeze them to get out the water??
Hummmm... Would it be as tasty as elephant poop?
Hummmm... Would it be as tasty as elephant poop?
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The notch does 2 things - it provides a place for the charred powder to accumulate and also allows oxygen to get to the coal. There are some techniques that don't use a conventional notch, but more on that later.
Rescue Mike - great diagrams. For me, though, I like the notch to go further into the depression, almost to the centre. Different strokes.
Doc
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Codger_64
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Not too sure I wanna know.
I found this picture...no not mouse poop or RescueMike squeezing any, sorry. 
So, Doc, you say you prefer the notch to go a little further into the hole, correct?
I also just read that hearthboard thikcness is important, too thick sucks up the heat, to thin and it's too fragile and will burn through prematurely.
Got that.
Mine is too thick, by far, that I know now.
Do you know how tempting it is to run this wood through my bandsaw?
And through my planer? I'm dying here.
OK, I'm carving down the hearthboard tomorrow after work and cutting the Vee Notch.
So, Doc, you say you prefer the notch to go a little further into the hole, correct?
I also just read that hearthboard thikcness is important, too thick sucks up the heat, to thin and it's too fragile and will burn through prematurely.
Got that.
Mine is too thick, by far, that I know now.
Do you know how tempting it is to run this wood through my bandsaw?
And through my planer? I'm dying here.
OK, I'm carving down the hearthboard tomorrow after work and cutting the Vee Notch.
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- 7,021
Quote- SkunkWerX: So, Doc, you say you prefer the notch to go a little further into the hole, correct?
Yes, almost to the centre but not quite. Also, some people make the apex of the notch less pointed (picture a triangle with the top cut off). If you need diagrams, I can draw them up. I've done it both ways and I'm not sure which I prefer - maybe leaning a bit towards the less pointed notch.
I also just read that hearthboard thikcness is important, too thick sucks up the heat, to thin and it's too fragile and will burn through prematurely. It's a balancing act, like using enough pressure down on the drill but not too much. Sometimes, if the elements and/or materials are less than optimal you can reduce the width of the board on each side of the depression to further reduce the heat draining effect of the wood. Also, if you make it too thin, and drill all the way through, you not only don't get a coal but you wear yourself out for nothing. And if you do get a coal, there may not be enough thickness for another and that means you have to redo the whole depression thing.
Got that.
Mine is too thick, by far, that I know now.
Do you know how tempting it is to run this wood through my bandsaw?
And through my planer? I'm dying here. Why not? First and foremost get comfortable with the technique. There's time enough to get primitive.
OK, I'm carving down the hearthboard tomorrow after work and cutting the Vee Notch. And we'll expect your report of success, shortly thereafter.
BTW, you mentioned something about slots in your bow? Or something like that?
My favourite bow is a bow with a fork at the end (away from where you hold it) with each leg of the fork a different diameter. The cord is tied to the 'handle' end and the other end of the cord has a loop. By changing the configuration of which fork (or the main branch) the cord goes around and how many wraps, you can make an instant adjustment to the tautness (is that a word?) of the cord.
Doc
Yes, almost to the centre but not quite. Also, some people make the apex of the notch less pointed (picture a triangle with the top cut off). If you need diagrams, I can draw them up. I've done it both ways and I'm not sure which I prefer - maybe leaning a bit towards the less pointed notch.
I also just read that hearthboard thikcness is important, too thick sucks up the heat, to thin and it's too fragile and will burn through prematurely. It's a balancing act, like using enough pressure down on the drill but not too much. Sometimes, if the elements and/or materials are less than optimal you can reduce the width of the board on each side of the depression to further reduce the heat draining effect of the wood. Also, if you make it too thin, and drill all the way through, you not only don't get a coal but you wear yourself out for nothing. And if you do get a coal, there may not be enough thickness for another and that means you have to redo the whole depression thing.
Got that.
Mine is too thick, by far, that I know now.
Do you know how tempting it is to run this wood through my bandsaw?
And through my planer? I'm dying here.
Why not? First and foremost get comfortable with the technique. There's time enough to get primitive.OK, I'm carving down the hearthboard tomorrow after work and cutting the Vee Notch. And we'll expect your report of success, shortly thereafter.
BTW, you mentioned something about slots in your bow? Or something like that?
My favourite bow is a bow with a fork at the end (away from where you hold it) with each leg of the fork a different diameter. The cord is tied to the 'handle' end and the other end of the cord has a loop. By changing the configuration of which fork (or the main branch) the cord goes around and how many wraps, you can make an instant adjustment to the tautness (is that a word?) of the cord.
Doc
Do you know how tempting it is to run this wood through my bandsaw?
And through my planer? I'm dying here.
OK, I'm carving down the hearthboard tomorrow after work and cutting the Vee Notch. And we'll expect your report of success, shortly thereafter.
BTW, you mentioned something about slots in your bow? Or something like that?
My favourite bow is a bow with a fork at the end (away from where you hold it) with each leg of the fork a different diameter. The cord is tied to the 'handle' end and the other end of the cord has a loop. By changing the configuration of which fork (or the main branch) the cord goes around and how many wraps, you can make an instant adjustment to the tautness (is that a word?) of the cord.
Doc
-Thanks Doc, I don't need no steeenkin bandsaw! One thing i am comfrotable with is woodwork.
-Reports to follow as quickly as possible, YES SIR!! (clicks heels)
-I know I could do better on the bow, as i spent a good 2 to 3 minutes on it
Thanks for all the knowledge transfer, and encouragemnt and kind words, from everyone! A success for me , is really a group success!
I looked close at what you did and it looks pretty good. Let me say first that I am definetly not an expert on this. I have tried making fire like this once so far and "no joy". I intend to try more times though. The comment which is more of a question than anything else is with respect to the ends of the spindle. I thought that the part in contact with the fireboard was supposed to be pointier and the part in contact with the bearing block was supposed to be rounded. Now I understand he got some good friction and smoke and am not minimizing his accomplishment. He has already done much better than me. I was just wondering if he would have had more/faster success if the shape of the ends of the spindle were reversed as I thought that they were supposed to be???
Again, congrats SkunkWerX on your effort. Just asking for clarification from people with more experience.
KR
Again, congrats SkunkWerX on your effort. Just asking for clarification from people with more experience.
KR
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Hey kr,
The top part of the drill is supposed to be 'pointy' because less surface contact, less friction. You want the friction to be occurring at the hearth level.
And as far as you doing this, get to it. There are lots of people here, at the moment, that can help you with your problems, so in lieu of personal instruction, this might be your best opportunity. Looking forward to your successful report.
Doc
mewolf1
Gold Member
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- 12,993
I'll try to sum up what I have found and works for me.
Red Cedar is really easy, straight grain split rail fenceing works great.
reduce all the friction you can at the bearing block; I use candle wax dripped into the socket.
Use as straight a spindle as you can.
Use the same wood for both sindle and fireboard.
Fire board seems best at about a 1/2" thickness, thicker means a greater heat sink.
Try to get the hole where the spindle is burning about 1/8" from the edge of the fire board when the spindle is at full bore.
Lock bearing arm around your knee as to steady your socket hand.
When smoke starts add some down force(keep steady)
When you think you can stop, go a little longer.
And when you DO stop, try not to knock the "cone" of dust over
Have ten cases of Herring ready for smoking Hope this helps
Red Cedar is really easy, straight grain split rail fenceing works great.
reduce all the friction you can at the bearing block; I use candle wax dripped into the socket.
Use as straight a spindle as you can.
Use the same wood for both sindle and fireboard.
Fire board seems best at about a 1/2" thickness, thicker means a greater heat sink.
Try to get the hole where the spindle is burning about 1/8" from the edge of the fire board when the spindle is at full bore.
Lock bearing arm around your knee as to steady your socket hand.
When smoke starts add some down force(keep steady)
When you think you can stop, go a little longer.
And when you DO stop, try not to knock the "cone" of dust over
Have ten cases of Herring ready for smoking
Hope this helps- Joined
- Dec 31, 2006
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- 431
Yep, right in the notch!.....whoa, this came late.
Doc and Kr1.... As I have poured over the sites describing construction and usage, I found contradictions, such as KR1 just mentioned.
Some say not to make the top of the spindle pointy, but blunt/rounded, for fear it will go through the hand-hold. That's just an example of the various info out there.
I also applied common sense, (what I had at least) , small and pointy means less friction at the top. The perfect spindle would have 1% friction at the top, and 99% at the bottom.
But to KR's point, for each place you visit, there is differing info.
It seems that this is somewhat of a personal journey, also, to an extent.
I would suggest that folks look at the big picture, and not dwell on perfect angles, how the electrons flow, and the gravitational field created.
As you make the journey, through observation, you will start building the finer points and filling in the gaps. I'm not all the way there, but I'm well on the way, I can see light at the end of the tunnel.
My best suggestion is make a hole, and spin the wood into it. Observe what happens. Then read a little, ask a few Q's , and try again. And so on.
This is a Zen thing.
Off to the garage to cut the notch.
Will report back soon.
OK Doc, a little help, please??? well, guidance.
Here we are.
I had to deal with some cord slippage, but no biggie, it's pretty self-explanatory.
I'm getting a good deal of smoke within a minute or so. Then I really crank up the speed and force and get steady smoke for 20 to 30 seconds. Enough to rise up into my face.
Yielding a dark Chocolate-brown feathery type of dust.
At one point, I could really smell it burning, thought I had a coal, but, it was not there. Was using a rifle target under the hearth, to see if I would get even a burned brown spot out of it.
Nope. no ember, yet.
I think my notch is too big, as 90% or more of the powder created seems to be spilling out while drilling.
Does this seem like a reasonable diagnosis? (Remembering that the hole in the hearth was pretty close to the edge anyway?)
Besides that, I think I need to thin down the hearth, it's still a bit thick.
And I'll start a new hole, also, based on all the input.
Any other words of wisdom?
Here we are.
I had to deal with some cord slippage, but no biggie, it's pretty self-explanatory.
I'm getting a good deal of smoke within a minute or so. Then I really crank up the speed and force and get steady smoke for 20 to 30 seconds. Enough to rise up into my face.
Yielding a dark Chocolate-brown feathery type of dust.
At one point, I could really smell it burning, thought I had a coal, but, it was not there. Was using a rifle target under the hearth, to see if I would get even a burned brown spot out of it.
Nope. no ember, yet.
I think my notch is too big, as 90% or more of the powder created seems to be spilling out while drilling.
Does this seem like a reasonable diagnosis? (Remembering that the hole in the hearth was pretty close to the edge anyway?)
Besides that, I think I need to thin down the hearth, it's still a bit thick.
And I'll start a new hole, also, based on all the input.
Any other words of wisdom?
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- Apr 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,021
QUOTE=SkunkWerX
OK Doc, a little help, please??? well, guidance.
Here we are.
I had to deal with some cord slippage, but no biggie, it's pretty self-explanatory. There are 3 ways of dealing with it. One is the Egyptian fire bow method, but let's leave this for a bit - too easy. The other 2 ways are, stop and retie your string which wastes time and lets everything cool down (remember what I said about a forked stick - adjustment is fast and easy), the other is to apply pressure downward on the string with your thumb (of the hand holding the bow) which tightens the string long enough for you to get the coal. I said 3 ways, but I was just talking about the bow and string. Your drill may be too smooth and rounded helping the string to slip - some people 'hex' up the drill to create better traction, maybe your drill is too small in diameter - what I do to offset this is I leave the part of the drill where the string rides, larger in diameter and I reduce the diameter on the bottom 2 or 3" (I use a relatively long drill because of back problems). Now I'm sure somebody will point out that this will reduce oscillation speed at the hearth, and this is true, but I find that the increased traction more than makes up for it. You can also use larger diameter cord and/or 'reverse twisted' cordage ( I guess that's more than 3 ways )- in a survival situation you use what you can, but I believe success first, and then work on the details. Another thing you might be doing is applying too much downward pressure, which is a common fault among a lot of beginners. This does 3 things - tires you out faster, helps to reduce the speed of oscillation, and quite often it creates larger charred powder which requires higher temperatures to ignite. I just remembered at this point about all the lost posts so I switched to word - .
I'm getting a good deal of smoke within a minute or so. Then I really crank up the speed And Force and get steady smoke for 20 to 30 seconds.This is what makes me think you are applying too much pressure. I've seen time and time again, people harping on applying a ton of downward pressure. You mentioned common sense - think about it. If you took the cold wood pieces and raised them up to smoking temperature, you probably don't need more pressure or maybe just a little bit, and I'm not saying downward pressure isn't important, it's just that people usually use too much. Enough to rise up into my face.
Yielding a dark Chocolate-brown feathery type of dust.
At one point, I could really smell it burning, thought I had a coal, but, it was not there. Was using a rifle target under the hearth, to see if I would get even a burned brown spot out of it.
Nope. no ember, yet. When you get the coal, you will usually notice a separate little wispy bit of smoke coming from the char.
I think my notch is too big, as 90% or more of the powder created seems to be spilling out while drilling. Spilling out to where? You need it to accumulate to get a coal.
Does this seem like a reasonable diagnosis? (Remembering that the hole in the hearth was pretty close to the edge anyway?) As long as your drill is not popping laterally out of the hole, you're probably ok.
Besides that, I think I need to thin down the hearth, it's still a bit thick. This you already knew.And I'll start a new hole, also, based on all the input.
Any other words of wisdom? Depends what happens with your next attempt, and dare I say it? The successful one?
Skunk, I'm counting on you to keep at it. I always thought that you could teach somebody over the internet, so this is the test. BTW, I learned how by reading books alone. Mind you it took me one hell of a long time but even that has it's good points. For example, I probably made every mistake in the book, many times, but later on when I watch somebody else, I can usually see what they're doing wrong.
Doc
OK Doc, a little help, please??? well, guidance.
Here we are.
I had to deal with some cord slippage, but no biggie, it's pretty self-explanatory. There are 3 ways of dealing with it. One is the Egyptian fire bow method, but let's leave this for a bit - too easy. The other 2 ways are, stop and retie your string which wastes time and lets everything cool down (remember what I said about a forked stick - adjustment is fast and easy), the other is to apply pressure downward on the string with your thumb (of the hand holding the bow) which tightens the string long enough for you to get the coal. I said 3 ways, but I was just talking about the bow and string. Your drill may be too smooth and rounded helping the string to slip - some people 'hex' up the drill to create better traction, maybe your drill is too small in diameter - what I do to offset this is I leave the part of the drill where the string rides, larger in diameter and I reduce the diameter on the bottom 2 or 3" (I use a relatively long drill because of back problems). Now I'm sure somebody will point out that this will reduce oscillation speed at the hearth, and this is true, but I find that the increased traction more than makes up for it. You can also use larger diameter cord and/or 'reverse twisted' cordage ( I guess that's more than 3 ways
)- in a survival situation you use what you can, but I believe success first, and then work on the details. Another thing you might be doing is applying too much downward pressure, which is a common fault among a lot of beginners. This does 3 things - tires you out faster, helps to reduce the speed of oscillation, and quite often it creates larger charred powder which requires higher temperatures to ignite. I just remembered at this point about all the lost posts so I switched to word - .I'm getting a good deal of smoke within a minute or so. Then I really crank up the speed And Force and get steady smoke for 20 to 30 seconds.This is what makes me think you are applying too much pressure. I've seen time and time again, people harping on applying a ton of downward pressure. You mentioned common sense - think about it. If you took the cold wood pieces and raised them up to smoking temperature, you probably don't need more pressure or maybe just a little bit, and I'm not saying downward pressure isn't important, it's just that people usually use too much. Enough to rise up into my face.
Yielding a dark Chocolate-brown feathery type of dust.
At one point, I could really smell it burning, thought I had a coal, but, it was not there. Was using a rifle target under the hearth, to see if I would get even a burned brown spot out of it.
Nope. no ember, yet. When you get the coal, you will usually notice a separate little wispy bit of smoke coming from the char.
I think my notch is too big, as 90% or more of the powder created seems to be spilling out while drilling. Spilling out to where? You need it to accumulate to get a coal.
Does this seem like a reasonable diagnosis? (Remembering that the hole in the hearth was pretty close to the edge anyway?) As long as your drill is not popping laterally out of the hole, you're probably ok.
Besides that, I think I need to thin down the hearth, it's still a bit thick. This you already knew.And I'll start a new hole, also, based on all the input.
Any other words of wisdom? Depends what happens with your next attempt, and dare I say it? The successful one?
Skunk, I'm counting on you to keep at it. I always thought that you could teach somebody over the internet, so this is the test. BTW, I learned how by reading books alone. Mind you it took me one hell of a long time but even that has it's good points. For example, I probably made every mistake in the book, many times, but later on when I watch somebody else, I can usually see what they're doing wrong.
Doc
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- Apr 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,021
One more thing, Skunk. I was sitting here thinking about how close you are, and you are close. Change your wood. Box Elder works ok, but Basswood (Tilia americana) works even better. So does Eastern Cottonwood (Populus deltoides). They have their own shortcomings but getting a coal isn't one of them.
Doc
Doc
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- Sep 5, 2006
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- 1,342
Just make SURE that the Cottonwood is dry.. That stuff can hold water for what seems like forever!
Keep up the good work!
Doc, thanks again. I can't say that enough.
I re-tied the string. Simple solution to a simple problem.
I am using downard force on the cordage closest to me to keep the cord from rubbing itself at the spindle, got that concept. But cord slippage is NOT a big deal, when it happened, the root cause was obviously loose knot/cord.
*I am going to use a forked stick next time. :thumbup:
I did read about the Egyptian method, I can get to that later.
(I may skip to the pump drill, next, anyway. I'm going to figure a way that people won't be so hesitant to build a pumper, based on complexity, I have an "idea" for easier/faster construction.)
PROBLEM: The char dust is spilling, or "leaking" downward, "through" the notch onto the paper, like all of it. Think of an hour glass leaking sand.
That's why I say I have to start a new hole, with new Vee notch. As you guys said, the hole was probably too close to the edge. And I think my notch was too fat at the top.
TECHNIQUE: As far as down pressure, I'm starting slowly, with very little pressure for the first 10 seconds, developing "rhythm", then speeding up to generate that heat, then finally applying some pressure, not tons of pressure, but, until I feel the force beginning to affect the spinning movement. Anything beyond that would probably result in a trade-off between pressure/friction vs. speed/heat.
-Maintaining the 90° between the spindle and hearth. [x] :thumbup:
I wobbled it one time, and can easily see how that would cut down on heat production.
-No pop outs, not once. (probably jinxed, now.)
ACTION: When I get home this evening:
- I am thinning the hearth material which should reduce "heat leakage".
-Making a new hole and associated Vee notch, and trying again.
It's dry and windy today, so I may be able to make a modest tinder bundle...if i get a coal, it would be a shame not to celebrate by lighting a tinder bundle. :thumbup:
Been keeping mental notes, along the way. So far I don't really have a ton of time invested. An hour of overall build time, maybe less, 30 minutes of first trial, maybe 30 mins last night.
I'll report back on all of this in an overall summary, but, so far, haven't had to sell my soul to get this far.
More to follow this evening.
****Huge thanks to everyone for the input thus far,
Mewolf, Rescue Mike and, of course, Doc. Thanks guys!! :thumbup:
I re-tied the string.
Simple solution to a simple problem. I am using downard force on the cordage closest to me to keep the cord from rubbing itself at the spindle, got that concept. But cord slippage is NOT a big deal, when it happened, the root cause was obviously loose knot/cord.
*I am going to use a forked stick next time. :thumbup:
I did read about the Egyptian method, I can get to that later.
(I may skip to the pump drill, next, anyway. I'm going to figure a way that people won't be so hesitant to build a pumper, based on complexity, I have an "idea" for easier/faster construction.)
PROBLEM: The char dust is spilling, or "leaking" downward, "through" the notch onto the paper, like all of it. Think of an hour glass leaking sand.
That's why I say I have to start a new hole, with new Vee notch. As you guys said, the hole was probably too close to the edge. And I think my notch was too fat at the top.
TECHNIQUE: As far as down pressure, I'm starting slowly, with very little pressure for the first 10 seconds, developing "rhythm", then speeding up to generate that heat, then finally applying some pressure, not tons of pressure, but, until I feel the force beginning to affect the spinning movement. Anything beyond that would probably result in a trade-off between pressure/friction vs. speed/heat.
-Maintaining the 90° between the spindle and hearth. [x] :thumbup:
I wobbled it one time, and can easily see how that would cut down on heat production.
-No pop outs, not once.
(probably jinxed, now.)ACTION: When I get home this evening:
- I am thinning the hearth material which should reduce "heat leakage".
-Making a new hole and associated Vee notch, and trying again.
It's dry and windy today, so I may be able to make a modest tinder bundle...if i get a coal, it would be a shame not to celebrate by lighting a tinder bundle. :thumbup:
Been keeping mental notes, along the way. So far I don't really have a ton of time invested. An hour of overall build time, maybe less, 30 minutes of first trial, maybe 30 mins last night.
I'll report back on all of this in an overall summary, but, so far, haven't had to sell my soul to get this far.
More to follow this evening.
****Huge thanks to everyone for the input thus far,
Mewolf, Rescue Mike and, of course, Doc. Thanks guys!! :thumbup:
Crud, I have got neither Cottonwood nor Basswood, even if I do, it's live.
No dead cedars around either...that I know of.
Choices:
How bout tulip poplar?? have tons of it.
Locust [x] got that.
wild cherry/mulberry [x] got that too.
white oak [x] on the wood pile, seasoned and dry.
Give me your thoughts. please.