Bowie/Fighters with hamons

Kohai999 said:
Its a Fosterish/Knightish/Wheelerish handle treatment....which is awesome.

The hamon is significantly too extreme and at that point is a waste of valuable time.....better to just do a SIMPLE good heat treat.....this extreme level shows a lack of control, imo.

I do very much like your blade shapes.

The leather work is exceptional.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Not sure I understand what you are saying Steven, when the hamon is too extreme? What would have been better?

Brian
 
Hey Brian,

The question for every maker....what does the hamon do?

It provides a hard edge with a soft back...the blade will flex without breaking and hold the edge for a long time.

In order to optimize that....a formula is ideal.

1/3 hard edge, 2/3 soft back.

These blades do not accomplish that formulaic goal.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
Hey Brian,

The question for every maker....what does the hamon do?

It provides a hard edge with a soft back...the blade will flex without breaking and hold the edge for a long time.

In order to optimize that....a formula is ideal.

1/3 hard edge, 2/3 soft back.

These blades do not accomplish that formulaic goal.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

That is why I am starting to post my work in the forum. I want to hear about the good and bad.

I don't disagree with you about what the hamon does. I am not so sure about the ideal formula though... after your explanation I understand better to what you said about just having a properly heat treated blade compared to just having a hamon on it. However, I had no intention of following that formula.

The reason the hamons are like this and don't extend all the way closer to the tip is because I wanted a clip that was hard. You can make softer steel sharp but I want to have all sharp edges harder. To have the hamon and get the clips sharp I intentionally placed a hamon in those areas, on both knives.

Having said that, doesn't mean that I am right.

So, lets discuss hamons and fighters. (Fighters = sharp clip).

"Ideally" you would have a 0.33:0.66 ratio, hard edge to softer material, if there was a hamon on the blade. Does that mean it is ok to not have a clip that is hard in some areas? I say no. Leaving parts of the clip softer would mean that after only a few uses of the clip it would need to be sharpened or even fixed. A fully hardened clip would give you the same performance as the main cutting edge, which is what you would get in a fully hardened blade.

Thoughts?
 
Brian Avila said:
"Ideally" you would have a 0.33:0.66 ratio, hard edge to softer material, if there was a hamon on the blade. Does that mean it is ok to not have a clip that is hard in some areas? I say no. Leaving parts of the clip softer would mean that after only a few uses of the clip it would need to be sharpened or even fixed. A fully hardened clip would give you the same performance as the main cutting edge, which is what you would get in a fully hardened blade.

Thoughts?
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There is what is called a "turnback" at the boshi.

The clip would be fully hardened but the center or "core" would be soft.....it's all inspired by Japanese war blades....and there are many pictorial examples to chose from, I'm just too lazy at the moment to throw one up.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
There have been lots of recent examples of knives with sharpened clips and hamon with only the lower third of the blade hardened.

Here's a recent one by Ben Seward that is a good example.

 
J. Doyle said:
There have been lots of recent examples of knives with sharpened clips and hamon with only the lower third of the blade hardened.

Here's a recent one by Ben Seward that is a good example.

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You can sharpen softer steel, it is heat treating it and making it hard which allows the edge to hold.

In the picture I can't tell that the clip is hard all the way up to the junction with the spine.

What I am saying is that I designed a fighter that I wanted a clip that is hard and sharp, the entire length of the clip. To achieve that and have a hamon, I placed the hamon where it is.
 
Look closer, Ben's clip is hardened. You can see the line.

Check out the Best Bowie nomination thread. There are lots of others. Sam Lurquin's Tsavo is another example.

I'm not saying your blade is right or wrong or that Steven is right or wrong. I'm just saying that blades can be done using Steven's suggested general rule and still have a sharp hardened clip.

Here's a recent blade of my own that has a sharpened hardened clip.
 
I sharpen almost all of my clips...and they are hardened all the way back. You definitely want to grind the clip before heat treat. You'll have to be very careful with your heat to get the boshi correct...been doin' it awhile and I still don't get 'em all perfect:o
 
Ben Seward said:
I sharpen almost all of my clips...and they are hardened all the way back. You definitely want to grind the clip before heat treat. You'll have to be very careful with your heat to get the boshi correct...been doin' it awhile and I still don't get 'em all perfect:o
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Thanks.
 
Thanks for the input everyone, and I do mean everyone, I will take it into consideration and hopefully make better knives because of it.

-Brian-
 
Brian, I applaud that you are so willing to listen to other people's thoughts and I agree that it helps a maker become better. John and Ben both make great knives and willingly try to be helpful to other makers. I know for a fact that they share information between themselves but also with others.

STeven has so much knowledge of knives and he tries to promote custom knives. In your shoes i would feel pretty good in the fact that STeven commented, from what I can tell he doesn't comment unless there is a pretty good reason and he complemented your work. On occasion he comes across a bit rough but I really doubt that he would comment if he didn't sincerely hope to supply knowledge that may be helpful.

I really enjoyed seeing your work and look forward to seeing more. Thank you for sharing them here.

Chris
 
Chris Montgomery said:
Brian, I applaud that you are so willing to listen to other people's thoughts and I agree that it helps a maker become better. John and Ben both make great knives and willingly try to be helpful to other makers. I know for a fact that they share information between themselves but also with others.

STeven has so much knowledge of knives and he tries to promote custom knives. In your shoes i would feel pretty good in the fact that STeven commented, from what I can tell he doesn't comment unless there is a pretty good reason and he complemented your work. On occasion he comes across a bit rough but I really doubt that he would comment if he didn't sincerely hope to supply knowledge that may be helpful.

I really enjoyed seeing your work and look forward to seeing more. Thank you for sharing them here.

Chris
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Thanks. I understand. I post stuff here specifically for that reason. I want to hear about the good and the bad, from makers and from collectors. I do appreciate Steven commenting and he makes valid points.

It is a game really, make what I like, and also make what others think is great. I agree with Steven, I like the way the handle came out on the big fighter, in fact I like it more than the other style, for me anyways. I will just have to think about the hamon elements.
 
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Hey Brian, to answer your question and back up what Ben said, yes I do grind my clips before heat treat. At least mostly. Sometimes I may leave a bit to just clean up for decarb and final dimensioning and symmetry.
 
I don't think for a second you came off that way. My reasons for my comments are; 1.great work both knives and sheaths 2. I sincerely want to see more of your work here.

Also I know that Ben has been a beneficiary of STeven's knowledge. That's pretty cool if you ask me.

Chris
 
Fwiw.....at this point, I will simply not comment if I don't think it will be useful for the maker and also for the general populace of BFC....I am most certainly not trying to make people who work hard to make good knives look bad.

Ben Seward sought my input, and frankly, it is my opinion that his work has benefited from it and the input of many other sources.

I like and respect Ben and what he is trying to accomplish....and any maker that has approached me for critique has never been turned down or denigrated.

Brian Avila said:
Thanks. I understand. I post stuff here specifically for that reason. I want to hear about the good and the bad, from makers and from collectors. I do appreciate Steven commenting and he makes valid points. I tried to explain my design elements and thoughts but I think I came off as a dumb ass :foot:.

It is a game really, make what I like, and also make what others think is great. I agree with Steven, I like the way the handle came out on the big fighter, in fact I like it more than the other style, for me anyways. I will just have to think about the hamon elements.
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You didn't come off as as dumbass. I don't always do the best job of explaining how a hamon is optimized. Ben and I have had the benefit of face time, e-mails, pm's and texts. He can help you through his own trials and successes at this point more than I can, and that would be my recommendation.....till his successes and learn from him.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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Kohai999 said:
Fwiw.....at this point, I will simply not comment if I don't think it will be useful for the maker and also for the general populace of BFC....I am most certainly not trying to make people who work hard to make good knives look bad.

Ben Seward sought my input, and frankly, it is my opinion that his work has benefited from it and the input of many other sources.

I like and respect Ben and what he is trying to accomplish....and any maker that has approached me for critique has never been turned down or denigrated.



You didn't come off as as dumbass. I don't always do the best job of explaining how a hamon is optimized. Ben and I have had the benefit of face time, e-mails, pm's and texts. He can help you through his own trials and successes at this point more than I can, and that would be my recommendation.....till his successes and learn from him.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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I do appreciate it Steven. It does help out a lot, I wouldn't have known if no one said anything about it

-Brian-
 
Keep it up, Brian. Feel free to email if I can be of help. I'd be glad to talk to you.
 
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