Brand New Knife Makers???

Joined
Sep 23, 1999
Messages
5,855
I figure Blade Forums main scheme is to promote knives in general, therefore knife makers, therefore new knife makers. From my own experience, I know how hard it is to get started in the craft, and the biggest bump in the road being coming up with the $1,000-$1,200 to buy a new belt grinder. Well, I have an idea. It might have been done already, but I think it would still be a great thing to do.
We, the Forumites, being either knife collectors, knife makers, or flat out knifenuts, could each throw in a couple dollars towards the purchase(hopefully at a discount} of a belt grinder or grinders. Which one to get would be debatable, although I would choose a Wilton Square Wheel, partially because I love mine and have not had one single problem with it for three years, but mostly becuase they cost a bit less than other brands I've seen. Then we could have new makers, who absolutely do not already own a commercial belt grinder, post a short letter stating what knives and knife making mean to them, and why they would deserve this gift. All Forumites would then vote, IMPARTIALLY I hope, for who they feel would most deserve the grinder.To avoid any hard feelings, votes could be kept private by those who decided to cast a vote emailing them to someone who would be willing to keep a tally. I know this is alot to ask, but just think how many new makers, especially young folks, would never be able to seriously get into knife making due to lack of funds and the inability to buy their first belt grinder. I would hope that along with the grinder, we could have someone with experience deliver it and show the winner how to SAFELY operate it, or have the winner visit someone with a similar grinder for instruction. If the winner lives within a couple hundered miles of me, I would be more than happy to show off my skills, no, I mean show them how to use the grinder.

Well, just thought I would bounce this off the forums and see where it landed. With as many members as we have, $5 from each member should raise more than enough to give away a couple belt grinders. Think it over and vote for the idea in this thread. Comments are welcome, but please leave a vote also. A simple YES or NO will be ok. Take care Forumites and fellow knife makers (wannabes included)!! Michael

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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"


[This message has been edited by L6STEEL (edited 15 November 1999).]
 
i'm for it, a new belt sander would mean a whole lot to me, how about a j&l vertical or a bader bIII.
 
It sounds good to me I presently work in Gary B's shop I am thankful that Gary lets me work there and I couldn't ask for a better teacher. I would love to have one of my own . If you get it rolling coun me in .

Steve

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Sometimes you are the Windshield and sometimes you are the Bug

 
I'd be for it, since I fall into the category of someone without a commercial grinder.

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Oz

"Never try to teach a pig to sing.
It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig."
-Lazarus Long
 
Can you believe this? Only three posts in this thread. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea afterall!! Take care! Michael

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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
Folks,
I have mixed feelings over this one. I like the idea of giving a grinder to a deserving individual. But on the other hand, not having a grinder, and having to work hard, making knives by hand, and then with a homemade grinder, and later saving for, and purchasing that commercial grinder, taught me much. Not only some of the finer points of knifemaking, but also about paying my dues, and the feeling that comes from working hard for what you have. I am in no way trying to keep anyone down, but I am reminded of a young knifemaker I met several years ago at a major show. His family was wealthy, and his dad had purchased a complete line of machinery for him. He showed up at my table, cussing, ranting, and raving about how his knives looked as good as mine, but he couldn't get the prices that I did. A few months later he called, said he was passing through on vaction, and asked to visit my shop. When he stepped through the door, he gasped...."This is all the equipment you have!!?, "It must really suck to make knives in this kind of shop!" From his statement it was obvious to me that he felt that having all sorts of machines was what makes a knifemaker. I didn't even bother telling him the immense satisfaction, and self worth I get from producing knives in my "less than optimum" shop. The point being that any of us who pursue knifemaking, or any other craft, gain something extra from working for, and earning those "advanced" tools. I also think that we become better knifemakers, and better people for our efforts.
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey

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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"


 
Got to go along with ED.IF YOU EARN YOU LEARN.
I made my grinder spent about $400 over a 2 year period.I'M not a machinist or a welder I used a hack saw,drill press,and a cut off wheel in a table saw to put the thing together.IT works.I sure would like to have a brand spanking new grinder.I've finished 33 knives since I finished my grinder and I don't consider myself a MAKER yet. I'm not to sure I would donate to furnish a new maker with a machine. Sorry old school I guess.
Take Care
TJ Smith
 
Ed and Tj, I unsderstand what you're saying. My first blades were cut out by drilling a bunch of 1/8" holes close to each other and the pattern and breaking the scrap away. Then grinding the shape on a cheap bench grinder and hollow grinding with a grindstone bolted to a craftsman table saw. I had never seen a belt grinder, and didn't even know knives were made with sanding belts. I envisioned men grinding blades on 4 foot grindstones or something. I was blessed with a loan to buy my Wilton after about a year of pure hell and frustration. Once I started using a real belt grinder, I started making better and better blades without breaking my back to do it. I agree, you can learn alot doing things the hard way, but I am virtually positive that if I hadn't gotten my Wilton when I did,my knife making would have ended. Hard work is good, but theres got to be an end to it and a reward also!
What harm can it do to help a struggling new maker move up a notch??I never intended for someone who hasn't ever made a knife to get this prize. Thats why I thought of the letter writing. A knifemaker isn't just a person that takes a bunch of stuff and puts together a knife, not to me anyway. Every blade you grind and handle you cut and shape has some of yourself in it. Alot of folks don't consider knives art, but I think knife makers are artists, and no different than a painter or sculptor. We all make things that each person sees and feels and appreciates in their own way. A person who has never made knives is not going to be able to put into words what it means to be a knife maker. Oops, sorry!! Didin't mean to get philosophical on you!!
I sure would hate to loose a potential Tim Herman !!
All opinions are welcome and appreciated here. I thank Magnum, Steve, Oz, Ed, and Tj for their's! Take care forumites!! Michael


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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
well put l6, i agree if you've only made one or two knives, it probably doesn't mean enough to you to be able to put it in writing. i've been making them for over a year, and i've been using a small delta belt sander, and it struggles, a new industrial belt sander would mean a lot to me. i know how you feel ed, i don't like people who don't know what the word "earn" meens.
 
Baing caught somewhere in the middle, here are my perspectives:
In the last 1.5 years, I have gone from owning a few SAK's and getting my first real one-handed folder to having quite a collection of knives, making sheaths on a somewhat commercial basis and seeing lots of knives that way, and finished several knife kits from custom makers (Rob Simonich, Madpoet, and in the mail, Jens Anso). During this time I came to the conclusion "Hey...I could do this!" or at least with fixed blades, which I prefer anyway.
Several things "hold me down" from completing this dream. First is the financial restraint. When I graduate from my doctoral program, I'll be about $100K in the hole due to educational loan expenses. I had to give that to learn how to help other people. Go figure! Every time I spend money I am spending 3 times what it actually looks like because education loans are on a 1:3 pay back schedule. I spend a dollar of loan money and I have to pay back three. That even makes McDonald's really expensive!
The second restraint is time. My time is divided between family, occasional social gatherings, school, a part-time job, and more than anything else, patients. Time is a premium for me.
I have accepted that this may not be the "right" time in my life to start knifemaking, but the drive is so strong that I went to Sears and bought the best bench grinder I could afford: an $80 8" wheel model. It works great, but all it affords me to do is making blade blanks with no countours like finger notches, etc. I wanted to give handmade knives to my guys at my wedding, so I made the blanks from D-2 and sent them to Dr. Lathe for the edge grinding. I would have loved to be able to do it myself, but I tested what it was like to file annealed D-2 and I would still be working on my first knife even now!
This isn't meant as a cut-down, but a lot of you guys have REAL 9-5 jobs and don't have a fortune's worth of debt hanging over your head. My workshop consists of this: a bunch of inherited hand tools (files are about the only usable thing for knifemaking, the rest is for carpentry), a 20 year old drill (NOT a drill press) and some bits, a mini-bench vise, and the bench grinder I bought. A drill press would improve things a hundred percent, a real vice would double that, imagine what a decent grinder would do for me! I could parobably get away with the Sears 2x 72", in fact! I'm not looking for handouts, but there is a difference between "having nothing" and REALLY having nothing! To even get my shop to where a lot of you started at would cost close to a thousand bucks. I'd love to make my own knives and sell them to folks here, but I have already resigned myself to realizing it ain't gonna happen. Will I still have the drive to do it in 10 years when I have a self-sufficient practice and maybe a half-day more of time than I do now? I dunno. Where's my crystal ball?
wink.gif
There are two sides to every coin. It'd be great if all of us newbies could get nice equipment, apprentice in known-maker's shops, etc. Snap back to reality, though, and spending ten years on making knives with files still wouldn't get me any closer to realizing a dream. Plus, when your time is worth about $250 an hour (obviously a projected number...maybe three years from now!), how much time can you really spend on a knife? It would take 100 hours to make a usable knife with hand tools that is average size. Even at minimum wage that's a $500 knife plus materials. Who would buy that from a new maker?
Anyway, bottom line is you either have the basic equipment or you don't. If you don't, then you can't even step up to the plate. If you do, then you have a chance. Now, can someone loan me $2000 to get started? I didn't think so!
wink.gif
L6, it's a good idea, and I'm all for it (especially since I'd be on the receiving end of things), but it may be less than realistic. Until then, I'll just have to farm out all my hard work! I currently have L6 donating his time for using his bandsaw to cut scales for me (nope, i don't even have one of those), and Dr. Lathe is currently grinding edges on tantos for me. Anyone else want me to farm a job out to them?
wink.gif


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My Custom Kydex Sheath page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/kydex.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
agocs_s@dd.palmer.edu
Madpoet (Mel Sorg, Jr.) Tribute page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/madpoet/main.html
 
Guys,

I have to agree with Ed on this one. If you want to be given equipment to make knives with, get a job with Schrade , or Cold steel or if you are pretty good with A.G. Russell, or some other manufacturer. If you want to be a KNIFEMAKER then buy books, study, ask questions (ala this forum), Scrounge at sales and use whatever you can to get the job done. A $200.00 2X42 belt sander from Sears will get the job done. Rebuild a 1x42 belt sander with a 1 horse motor. Not great but will work. Buy parts from any of the Knifemaker Supply houses to build your own 2x72 grinder. Sell the knives you make this way for whatever you can get, don't spend it. Put it in a jar or the bank and save every dime util you can buy a good grinder. Look at the car you are driving. Is it pretty slick? Would you rather build knives or drive a fancy car.

The point I'm making is that one of the biggest thing you have to learn to be a knifemaker is how to "solve problems" as they come up. and new machinery isn't always the answer. and once you've done everything the hard way long enough and figured ways to make it better, and finally get to where you can buy a grinder, buffer, drill press, band saw, possibly a forge, anvil, tongs and a heat treat oven. And then make knives for a few more years until your quality is up to necessary standards, then you can call yourself a knifemaker.

As for the guy who said "It must suck to make knives in a shop like this", he shouldn't be allowed to make knives in any way anywhere. It doesn't "suck" to make knives in ANY way. Some ways are better than others and you have to work to get there.

As for STEVE45 above who works in my shop, even that is a privelage he earned over time and he didn't mention that he buys grinder belts, drill bits, dust masks, cleans the shop when necessary and understands that the shop can be made un-available at any time. So he is still paying his dues, and with patience will get his own shop together in a couple years

MAN, somebody take away my soap box! I need to go out and make a knife.

GaryB
 
Sorry, but I vote no also. My shop is open to folks who are dead serious about learning! I get few takers and a lot of "show me all I need to know now" types. If someone really wants to be a knife maker he or she will find a way! If that person crosses my path, I will do all I can to help but the real problem is the sorting process! I find that not many realy want it! My first grinder is a sandmaster 1.5 x 60 inch salvaged from a junk box. Than I found a well used wilton, rebuilt it and love it! Still have both! Thinking after 10 years about buying a new variable speed TruGrit or I could retro fit my old wilton! I think scrounging teaches humility! Filing dosen't heart ether! I think what we have to give is our knowledge; to each other and to a newbee. We do this very well! Thank You!!

Doug

[This message has been edited by Doug W (edited 17 November 1999).]
 
Well, I guess it's a wash!! Maybe next year I'll be making enough off my knives to donate a grinder myself. Thanks for your opinions on the subject forumites!! Take care! Michael

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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
I'll help any serious individual who wants to learn how to make knives & I do have equipment loaned out to some of these people.
Some will make it and some will not, thats life in the knife lane. Too much too quick
will not seperate the wannabe from the gonnabe. .

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old pete
 
I've been trying to make knives for something like ten years now, and I've only now gotten the shop that will allow me to make something worth a damn. Making tools has been a distraction along the way, but making tools teaches lessons that we need to know to make better knives. It also helps us choose our paths in knifemaking. If I'd had a good grinder two years ago, I might have never gone with forging. I've been working on building my good grinder for some time, and I'll be plenty proud of it when it's done. L6 just gave me a great leg up on that by finding a good contact wheel for a good price. Other than the motor, that's the only part that I couldn't make.
As much as I like the idea of getting a professional grinder, or anyone getting such a treasure, I think that the point of dicipline is very well made.

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Oz

"Never try to teach a pig to sing.
It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig."
-Lazarus Long
 
i don't think you guys understand what l-6 is trying to say. giving a grinder to a newbee is giving a grinder to a yungster, who has been making knives for a while, and can produce one heck of a blade on a hundred dollar grinder, just can't afford an idustial knifemaking machine. not giving a $1000 grinder to some kid who has decided he wants to make a knife, but hasn't produced any. why don't you make it so that with the essay, they have to submit a picture of a recently produced knife, by them.
 
Outstanding point and idea Magnum!!!!!

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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
Love the idea, but how about this:

Texas Knifemaking Supply in Houston offers a downright serviceable belt grinder for about $400. I've used it (at the shop) and it sure seems to do everything my little beginner's heart desires...

Maybe this might be a slightly less expensive way to enact this policy?


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It's the SUSPENSE that kills me! --Bugs Bunny

Kalindras, Carrollton, TX
 
Just let me know where to send the essay and pic.

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Oz

"Never try to teach a pig to sing.
It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig."
-Lazarus Long
 
thanks ozbourne for support l-6's idea. you guys who don't like this idea, whouldn't you have wanted a knifemaker's belt sander when you were struggling in your first year to make a lot of blades, huh? why would you deny a youngster the change to get his hands on a belt sander that would do him plenty good?
 
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