Branding / Marketing advice needed

Good stuff sells itself.

Quote Originally Posted by NickWheeler View Post
Um... can you... like... make knives?


Developing the skills to make a quality knife is really the easiest part of being a full time maker. You need some space, some money for a few decent tools, and the desire to use the vast amount of knowledge available online and the patience and dedication to see it through.

The hard part is to keep making those knives day in and day out and for the long haul, while being a good enough business person to get your knives sold for a sustainable margin to support yourself/family. Now add to the fact that the barriers to entry, as described above, are so low that thousands of people do it for recreation and are willing to sell their product at a rate so low as to just get more tools and more materials. And they are your competition. Some of the most talented knife makers in the world, including ABS mastersmiths, cannot make this equation work and have to find supplemental work to make ends meet.
 
They aren't even asking about processes. Its brand and marketing questions.

This.

That's what I was curious about earlier. There are finally better self run options for "in stock" web store experiences, but you speak the truth in that when you break from the online store process, and enter into the custom realm, there are fewer off the shelf solutions, since everyone's clientele is different. Depends on if you want to handle the payments process yourself in that same right as well. I feel like the marketing aspect is one of those take care of the little things and the big things take care of themselves sorta situation.
 
..well, according to my profile I've been trolling around bladeforum since 2007 with on/off participation, so I may as well take this as an opportunity to re-introduce myself. I'm 41 and grew up using my hands; bodywork, auto restoration, welding, hunting, archery,shooting..stuff most kids do in the midwest. I love archery and shoot a Matthews Drenalin at 280fps and especailly enjoy shooting indoor 3d's. I was going to try and take the next step and start shooting competitions, but there is only so much time in the day while working 48 hours a week, so knives trumped archery, and my bow sits in its case. My passion lies with traditional fixed blades; hunters, bowies, skinners, nessies with well incorporated natural materials that fit the style and function of the knife.

I didn't get the "knifemaking itch" until about 10 years ago. It was kinda like a virus in the sense I kept getting the itch back and would then quit again. This cycle would repeat itself once or twice a year mostly due to the fact I had poor equipment. I made 5 or 6 knives by hand on a piece of crap 6x48, none I was proud enough to even take a pic of. I would then usually get discouraged and say this isn't worth my time, then revert back to assembling some knife kits, knowing that one day I would have the proper equipment and be better prepared at that time.

Well, my kids are older, I have some things paid off, so I finally bit the bullet and bought my newly acquired 2x72 from AMK Tactical a few months ago.

Surprisingly the bevel grinding came pretty easy, at least a lot easier than trying to do on a 6x48. My plunge cuts are relatively square to each other and bevels are pretty symmetrical and flat. I am by no means saying I am great at it, I definitely have much more to learn and have yet to try my hand at hollow grinding.

This is my first and only knife to date completed 100% by my own hands. It is ground from 01, ht58-60 (outsourced), and comprised of black linen micarta, nickel bolsters, and pins. I hand sewed, stamped, and dyed the sheath from 10 oz veg tanned.
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I started profiling a bunch of templates to help reduce future build times and simplify ordering so friends have something to choose from
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I then discovered I didn't want to do batches of 10 blades at a time to make heat treat costs economical so I had to purchase this
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...which I just recvd earlier this week. This was my first treated blade on my own, went pretty good. Typical treat of 440C at 1880 for 15 min (no cryo)
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and here it is after final sand this morning to 500 grit (unsharpened)
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Hope this helps you guys out. I would personally like to thank Andy again at Fiddleback and the rest of you that offered great advice. Nick I wasn't going to respond to your comment, but I guess I understand it must get old having to answer questions from newcomers all the time and then you never see or hear from them again. I want to hit this right even though it is a minuscule operation. Having to manage the family business over the last 20 years has taught me to always have your ducks in row before you go to market, even it is a just a lemonade stand. First impressions are everything, the buyer needs to know exactly who you are and what it is you are selling, or concepts become grey and washed out. This was the main reason for this post. Search engines won't even start recognizing it for a year, so I want to get it done now. I need to figure out branding and get a them or style, and get it migrated into the system. I can add knives and pics as I build them.
 
It sounds like Nick is being abrasive here, but I don't see it that way. In fact this consideration of whether a guy can make knives is secondary in most conversations I have with new makers. They are interested in learning to make knives, but this isn't the goal. The question is always this, "Can you teach me to be a full time knifemaker?" Very rarely do they have a finished knife to show me at the time, but a notebook full of designs. I'm not saying this is the case with the OP. I have no ideas on this. Usually, they are focused on bringing their innovative knife vision to the marketplace and get rich before Christmas. They aren't even asking about processes. Its brand and marketing questions. I hire knifemakers and allow them to work on their knives in my shop during their off hours. Most of these 'full time knifemakers' questioners aren't interested in being a full time maker for $12/hour plus whatever they can sell of their own work. When, in reality, I've turned out several full timers with this system and the stupid $12/hour is as critical as the teaching, pricing help, branding help, and letting them sell in my forum to my gathered market. Imagine making $12/hour plus selling two pieces a week. Its not bad money if you are hungry enough to put the extra hours in on your own stuff. If you aren't its a dirty hard 12/hour job. Its not for most folks and without the desire to make knives I have a lot of turnover.

How about a pic or two of your knives Chris?


Unfortunate that your so far away from me Id love to get paid that much to make knives. Especially ones as nice as what fiddleback puts out. for now I just do this as a hobby for gifts.
 
I don't understand how my post was abrasive or not worth responding to.

To be a great knife maker, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, you need to make great knives.

Asking about how to market oneself as a great knife maker when nobody even knows if a guy makes knives is TO ME, like somebody coming along and saying: I've got these awesome basketball shoes, I have designed a bad ass jersey, I have a super sweet mascot... now I'm ready to go be a world class basketball player. I guess I should learn to play basketball too at some point."

Building a brand in custom knives before knowing how to build knives is putting the cart firmly in front of the horse.

I completely disagree that learning the skills is the easy part. I struggled for a long time before I could make a knife that I thought was worthy of selling. Maybe that just heavily depends on what a person thinks is good enough to sell.


Obviously I'm not in the norm on this thread. Wasn't trying to be a buzz-kill or rude, just asking something that TO ME, should have been an obvious question.
 
Nick, I was not responding out of disrespect, as you are a well respected knife maker and well established. I simply didn't have a fitting answer to your question.

Being able to "make a knife is subjective" my son at the age of 10 could make a knife. It would have been crude, and no one would have paid for it, but it would have been a knife. Since it was made by my son, I wouldn't trade it for a $500 Dozier. So value lies in the eye of the beholder.

If I said yes, I can make knives, you have followed up with okay let's see them, where I would be forced to look like an ass and put up my one humble knife. Or, I could have put up pictures of many knives I have assembled with blades other smiths have made, but I like many, have respect for the craft and don't call those mine. Yes, I can make knives! Are they to your caliber? No.

Let me ask you this- Does the guy making $50 knives from files and old hammer handles need not market himself the same as someone selling a $2000 knife?

I was simply asking for marketing advice for my website.
 
Chris-

I wasn't intending to pick on you with either of my posts. I think a lot of the miscommunication here is simply the lack of face-to-face interaction that we have with an online forum.

My first post was a bit tongue-in-cheek... but it was sort of my reaction to a combination of your OP and the replies you were getting.

Andy's post about guys coming to him wanting to know how to be full time makers, with little regard as to how to actually make knives, is fascinating to me. I guess the 'ol interwebz is to thank for there being guys like that. Fellas that want to be a successful marketer in the business instead of a successful knife maker.

And I'm not saying that's wrong to want that... it's just different from my personal interests.

Chris, wanting to get your ducks in a row is always a good thing and I definitely understand wanting to do that. Sorry if I came off snarky.
 
Chris-

I wasn't intending to pick on you with either of my posts. I think a lot of the miscommunication here is simply the lack of face-to-face interaction that we have with an online forum.

My first post was a bit tongue-in-cheek... but it was sort of my reaction to a combination of your OP and the replies you were getting.

Andy's post about guys coming to him wanting to know how to be full time makers, with little regard as to how to actually make knives, is fascinating to me. I guess the 'ol interwebz is to thank for there being guys like that. Fellas that want to be a successful marketer in the business instead of a successful knife maker.

And I'm not saying that's wrong to want that... it's just different from my personal interests.

Chris, wanting to get your ducks in a row is always a good thing and I definitely understand wanting to do that. Sorry if I came off snarky.

A good friend of mine and I were talking about Andy's marketing and why he has such a following and most of it has to do with him making lots of awesome knives for an affordable price.
 
Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents worth. This is just a short version of my opinion.

To make things work you need;
to produce something people want,
be organized and provide what and when you say you will,
keep yourself and your product in front of your target market.

Only takes failing at one of these to prevent you from being successful.
 
I hope I didn't offend you Nick. I didn't intend to do that. Chris, nice work. Stick with Cardinal, and market that with a forum here and a few small ads and you'll be fine.
 
No offense taken. I guess it's safe to say. Good stuff makes repeat sales very easy. Grin...
No offense, but that's the biggest line of bull-puckey ever perpetrated in the business world.

Of course you're all 100% correct that making really good stuff helps a great deal... but it doesn't "sell itself". If no one knows it exists, no one's going to care; and they're certainly not going to knock on your door and hand you money. On the other hand, the vast majority of knives sold today barely qualify as knives... but they're marketed well.

Selling anything requires effort and hard work that has absolutely nothing to do with making knives (or jewelry or guitars or pies or automobiles or... whatever).

My advice? Keep your designs simple, figure out what knives you like and understand, learn what customers are willing to pay for, develop your own "style", use the best materials/techniques you can to bring your ideas to fruition, and get your work out in front of people. Not just with pictures.

The single best "marketing" thing I can recommend is, make the finest coolest knife you possibly can and send it out to strangers in a passaround.
 
I probably speak for a lot of people when I say Nick is one of my heroes- he makes GREAT knives, and shows a level of commitment to doing that that has me shaking my head in admiration.
The other side of it, though, is that there are a lot of people who will buy a good knife, but simply aren't going to kick loose the money to buy a great knife. My competition, at this point, isn't the ABS mastersmiths, and it's certainly not the beginners, it's Shun and Kai. Really good kitchen knives, at a price point that lots and lots of chefs and fairly well off home cooks can get their wallets around.
Hopefully that will change as I go along, but I'm taking my time getting on top of the fundamentals- making those ten thousand knives, or whatever it takes to really speak this language. Meanwhile, the necessity of making and selling dozens of knives a month while constantly improving keeps me whistling on the way to the shop every morning.
Knife making isn't who I am, it's something I do, one of many things in my day.
 
I've seen some makers start off making garbage for knives and they had a waiting list for that garbage at top dollar! While I'm sure this is not the norm, they had the following and marketing skill to get away with it. However, even if I could get away with something like that, I could never bring myself to do it. I've only made about a dozen knives and I still can't convince myself to sell one because I can see whats wrong with it even if the customer doesn't. All it takes is one bad review to lose that customer base and ruin your reputation in my opinion. Conversely, I've also seen fantastic makers drop out of the game because they screwed a few customers and ruined it for themselves.

I guess what I'm trying to say is your name is everything whether you build it through quality work, fancy marketing, or customer service. Ideally I would imagine all three would be a top priority if you really want to be successful. Of course take my post with a grain of salt because I have no experience in selling knives; its just a bit of insight from my perspective at the moment.

As for the name question, I wish I could use mine but it is Mike Stewart, same as the founder of Bark River Knives.
 
Ekim, couldn't agree more, I will most likely be giving away a lot of my knives, as with you I'm not putting my name on it unless I'm 100% happy with it.
Elementfe, I wish you the best of luck, in very happy for you that you are able to do what you love for your work.
I hold no misperceptions about where I'm headed, my dad is getting up there in age and will need to retire soon, and I will have less time than I do now. I will just make knives at my own pace, when I can, and sell one knife out of every ten I make. I'm cool with that, as I enjoy making them.
Well it's five am, and once again my neurotic blind boxer is up running into things because he doesn't realize it's not light out, gonna go hit the grinder and see what I can screw up. Have a good weekend everyone.
 
This is an interesting question. I really shouldn't post much about it because I don't do what I need to do to get my name out there because honestly, it is just a hobby for me. Something to take my mind of my research and let a little creativity flow. However, I have brushed some elbows with some public relations (PR) people, some really good PR people. I would suggest finding someone specifically in marketing or PR.

In todays age of the internet and how it works, I have been suggested to take to Facebook, instagram, blogs, and dedicated subforms and interact with the customer base. And this is super time consuming. There are a lot of things that should be done when doing that. Multiple posts across multiple areas, interactions between the customers, videos, etc. There was so much info that it went over my head. Not to mention going to shows and getting people to touch your knives and meet you.

-Brian-
 
I understand the inclination with makers to say that you should put your name on your knives and that should be your brand. Unfortunately (or not) we weren't all given memorable, easily spelled names. The world is different today than it was thirty years ago and for most people, the first place they look for something is on the internet. Good branding is going to take this into account. You really need a name that will stick with people AND that you can own across the many information platforms (i.e. internet URL, Instagram, Facebook, Etc). If you think you're going to be serious about a business, you cannot take this lightly.

Bob
 
Brian made mention of getting together with marketing and PR people.... That is exactly what we did. It wasn't cheap, but we now have a solid business model and marketing agenda. I was surprized at the amount of work that went into it... but it has proven to be well worth the investment. The US alone has an $800,000,000 custom knife market. As wonderful as Blade Forums, knife shows and Facebook are, they only represent a fraction of the market potential.
 
I understand the inclination with makers to say that you should put your name on your knives and that should be your brand. Unfortunately (or not) we weren't all given memorable, easily spelled names. The world is different today than it was thirty years ago and for most people, the first place they look for something is on the internet. Good branding is going to take this into account. You really need a name that will stick with people AND that you can own across the many information platforms (i.e. internet URL, Instagram, Facebook, Etc). If you think you're going to be serious about a business, you cannot take this lightly.

Bob

Thanks for the input Bob. From a buyers perspective, what is your opinion of my mark (the CK and Cardinal head)? I am now beginning to think the word cardinal with the head might be the most memorable and easiest to search for, and I could put my mark directly onto a t-shirt and it would make sense.
 
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