Breathable waterproof shells?

T

Torm

Joined
Jul 12, 2007
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After being burned by spending WAY too much for a North Face jacket which was supposed to be both breathable and waterproof recently (and was neither), I'm wondering what your recommendations are for good breathable shells are?
 
While it doesn't say "Goretex" on it, I have had excellent luck with the breathable waterproof stuff from www.duluthtrading.com . I have their "special deal" 34.95 breathable waterproof jacket, and also their high end breathable waterproof jacket (this one i a little heavy, and they both have mesh liners so they don't pack really tight). both have gone through a lot of rain without letting me get wet, both are as breathable as you can get in a jacket of this design (at least as breathable as my gore tex xcr). The 89.95 version is identical in cut/fit/finish/feel of material/hardware/ and general look as one of the mountain hardwear jackets I was looking at at rei. Duluth will also take anything back at any time for any reason if you aren't satisfied.
 
Basically, there are no truely breathable shells. I've read several extensive tests and the conclusion is that all of the breathable systems can be overcome when you are working hard and perspiring heavily. Ventilation is what made the difference, so go ahead an buy a breathable shell, but make sure it has pit zips, venting pockets, vented cowls, etc. Wicking base layers like Patagonia Capilene are another aid.

I use Marmot Precip rain gear, as much for the weight and cost as breathability. Ponchos vent well and work with large packs, but suffer in the wind and bushwacking-- a simple waist cord can help there.
 
plus one on the pit zips, and lack of "true" breathable raingear. Thanks for the post Dale, you said in clear terms what I was trying to get across, but didn't say clearly and correctly. Both jackets from duluth have the pit zips and draw string hems. I also like the north face denali fleece for wear under them because it is the only heavy fleece I have ever come across that has pit zips.
 
What you wear under your shell is just as imprortant as the shell! If you are wearing cotton or something that doesn't transfer the moisture, you have altogether defeated the purpose of the "breathability".

Plus, layer your clothing, and start taking layers off when you begin to exercise!
 
I have 2 Helly Hansen Waterproof jackets.
one heavy shell for winter and one light shell for spring/fall.

Never had a leakage problem.


What recon ranger said is absolutely correct. I wear synthetic undershirt, lifa. Then a fleece anorak and then the shell. This combo works very well. Of course, temperature makes a huge difference. so you have to feel what works for you.
 
...but getting wet from the inside (perspiration), if often more of a problem than getting wet from the outside!
 
Pit zips are really important

I find that it really helps when they use waterproof zippers for the pit zips. The cheaper alternative is when the jacket uses a regular zipper and then velcro held flaps to protect the zipper. What happens is that you open the pit zips and after 2 minutes with your arms down the velcro finds its way shut again cutting off the ventilation.
 
I've had a Cabela's gore-tex parka/shell 2 peic coat for years and years now. Long since lost the liner. It has been extremely durable and withstood many skiing wipe outs and many trips through the woods. It has also proven to be completely, wonderfully water- wind- and whatever- proof. On the down side, it does lack venting and due to the couple of layers of nylon surrounding the gore-tex does not breath very well at all.

Bottom line: Excellent high quality, extremely durable parka. Very warm and weather proof; maybe too much for certain heavy-excertion activities in mild to moderately cold weather (worked up a sweat under this and a few out layers snowshoeing in -20*F...before windchill!).
 
bigbcustom said:
plus one on the pit zips, and lack of "true" breathable raingear. Thanks for the post Dale, you said in clear terms what I was trying to get across, but didn't say clearly and correctly. Both jackets from duluth have the pit zips and draw string hems. I also like the north face denali fleece for wear under them because it is the only heavy fleece I have ever come across that has pit zips.
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Marmot has made some too, but you don't see them often. I get more milage for the weight using heavier base layers or 100w fleece and adding polyester insulation like Primaloft or Delta when I'm cold. The Patagonia Micropuff vest and jackets are some of the best for their weight. I have a couple down items I picked up used, but I live the Pacific Northwest and down is a pain. I think down is more high altitude and cold/dry climate stuff. My point is, trying to put too much insulation in one layer leaves you overheated or cold. The price of the North Face Denali makes me want to start a riot! It's a lot of money for fleece.

A 200w fleece under a shell would take me down well below freezing when hiking hard, and then it won't be raining. The trick is to shed layers as you warm up and keep wicking and ventilation working for you. That means throwing on a warm layer when you stop. I might need to trade off my base layer if is really sweaty (being in good shape would really help). You will see "belay jacket" models for mountain climbing and that is the technique used there-- you are using light layers and a wind shell while climbing hard and adding a big down jacket when you stop.

My base hiking set is a Capliene silkweight tee shirt and a pair of shorts. I would add a windhshirt and pants if things get colder or sporadic light rain. I add a Power Stretch layer if it is colder and a Micropuff vest if colder yet. The layers can be swapped around-- I might just throw on the vest on if I'm chilled at a stop.

If I start out from the truck feeling a little cool, I know I'm just about right, because after 15 minutes I'm going to be plenty warm. I don't need extra insulation until I stop for a meal or actually camped. If it's that cold, I'm headed for my sleeping bag once the tent is up and I have a hot bag of food ready.

The clothing strategy I listed above is aimed at covering the widest range of conditions for the lightest weight on a multi-day hike. When summer day hiking, you might find me with a light nylon button down shirt, a light fleece vest for CYA, or a polyester tee and a windshirt.

I practice ultralight hiking and the clothing aspect of it took more research and change of habits than any other part. You need to forget what you know about work and round-town clothing to get the most coverage for the least weight. I don't think the ultralight gear is as effective for single day use and bushwacking like you might when you are hunting. It is aimed at the aerobic part of hiking too, assuming you are walking hard, going uphill with a load and a pack that provides a foot of insulation for your back. That's very different trashing through brush and sitting in a deer stand for hours in cold weather.
 
Helly-Hansen's proprietary waterproof/breathable material called "Helly-Tech" is excellent. It is a laminate very similar to Goretex but at a fraction of the price, and in my opinion functions better than Goretex. I go through a pair of the Helly-Tech Pants every field season, the last pair I bought was about $80. They only last me a field season generally as they are bound to get ripped at some point when working in the bush.

The nice thing about The North Face is their Goretex guarantee. I have a North Face Mountain Jacket and Mountain Bib-pants that I bought in 1992 at a cost of over $1000. I wear the jacket considerably more than the bib-pants (the bib-pants I only wear in the snow), the jacket gets worn daily at work (I love it by-the-way). It gets a lot of abuse. About every 2-3 years when the Goretex stops being waterproof and leaking like a sieve I send it back to the North Face and they send me a new jacket (this seems to happen on the arms/shoulders first in my experience). I am on my fourth warranty replacement jacket now (that’s five total).

You are bound to get wet from the inside-out no matter what you are wearing if you are doing a lot of physical activity. It is very important to get a shell with good zippered arm-pit ventilation. The seams must be taped, and best not to get velcro on the main zipper flaps (snaps are better, one of my jackets had velcro here and it drove me crazy as the velcro on the back of my OR mits was always sticking to it). I would also recommend an integral hood rather than one that zips on. As you are bound to get wet, picking the right material for your inner layers is just as essential as having a high quality shell; polypropelene is great, better is Helly-Hansen's ProWool, a polypro inner layer with wool on the outside, great for the cold. I never go to work in the field without them.
 
Take it from me I have tried them all and there is no such thing as breathable And Waterproof !!!!! In theory they are but when exercising hard condensation will still build up inside !!!!!!
I now go with Windproof shells that are water resistant such as the Paramo Windproof smock, I have worn this in real heavy rain and have still remained dry !!!!!!!
 
Pitdog is definitely right. Goretex only breathes when there is cold dry air outside the shell to suck the humid air through the pores in the membrane.
The air on our fair island is usually very humid and not very cold.
When the surface fabric wets out, the jacket can no longer breath and only keeps water out, but now you have a layer of cool wet nylon over you and condensation becomes a real problem that any amount of ventilation cannot overcome. With heavy use, the oil in your sweat eventually plugs the pores in any case or condition.
I'm intrigued by this new E Vent fabric which Integral Designs is using. It bonds polyurethane on a molecular level to the teflon 'matrix' which makes up the membrane. I'd love to be able to afford to try it out.
Otherwise, like the Pitdog says, windproof or waterproof, but on Vancouver Island- breathable? Most likely not. For here, a silnylon poncho is probably the most versatile shell option.
 
I have a North Face which had been great (has armpit vent zippers, as does the fleece liner jacket) and a Marmot which is lighter and also excellent (also with pit vents).

I perspire heavily and nothing is breathable enough for me. Plenty of venting options are important.

Stay sharp,
desmobob
 
Here is a link to an objective test of breathable water-repellant and waterproof fabrics. Event seems to top the waterproof products. (Schoeller fabrics are highly water-repellant.)

http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/breathability.pdf

As for "expanded PFTE" (teflon), it is defeated by body oil (a component of sweat). Gore-tex actually relies on a coating, not PFTE, for waterproofing. They include PFTE for trademark reasons, not function. The coating they use works even when sweated up. It does not work if the outside of the garment "wets out" 'cause the thermal push won't overcome the film strength of liquid water. So you have to keep the "durable water repellant" finish on the outside in good order to keep that film from forming.

The wisdom of the ventilating features mentioned by DaleW is reflected in the latest generation of military gear (explaining why the earlier stuff is so cheap = sweat bath). All breathable fabrics have limits, and Gore-Tex is more limited than other choices.

I tried a poncho over a Scholler jacket. The poncho keeps the worst of the rain off and the jacket keeps the condensation off the inside layers.
 
Maybe you should look into a softshell, offering decent repllency and far greater breatheability. My hardshell is for downpours and big snow, while my softshell covers everything else.
 
flipe8 said:
Maybe you should look into a softshell, offering decent repllency and far greater breatheability. My hardshell is for downpours and big snow, while my softshell covers everything else.
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+1 on a softshell. Most softshell fabrics are much more breathable than the hard ones, and you can just throw on a hard shell it if really starts coming down. Schoeller and Polartec both make very nice softshell fabrics. Schoeller stuff tends to be more pricey than Polartec. A lot of the big brands have their own variations of the same materials, they just call them something else.

Gore's new Pro Shell fabrics are supposed to be pretty awesome, but they haven't been around for very long to have extensive testing done. That, and they are crazy expensive at the moment. The cheapest jacket with Pro Shell is around $400.

Like others have said, make sure anything you have has ample venting. IMHO, the most important venting is pit zips, which work wonders if you start getting sweaty.
 
Many of the "soft shells" are indistinguishable from the water-repellant "windbreakers" of my youth - relying on spray-on silicon for repellancy. Others, like the Schoeller fabrics, are new tech.

I got a Schoeller DrySkin Plus "soft shell" for under $100 (Marmot) at a certain western Trading Post known for discounting high ticket gear. It keeps off light rain for hours and, as noted above, is great under a poncho. It also insulates like Polartec 100 weight garments. Sure breaths better than any waterproof "breathable" i have tried.
 
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