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brennan & miller balisong video ?
- Thread starter Knovice
- Start date
Knovice: try 'Karl Geis' on your search engine. He's 10th dan in an offhoot of Tomiki and 8th dan Judo. Under his 'origins of his style' section, about halfway through the article he explains why he eliminated Shomen-ate from randori.
Apparently everyone relied on it first, to the detriment of other techniques. Judo GeneLe Bell made a similar statement regarding tackling at the Kodokan (Kano had to eliminate tackling.)
Now whether one calls it 'shooting' or tackling, the Gracies have brought leg takedowns back to the limelight.
The description that PROTECTOR has given to unarmed defense against the knife may serve as a wake up call to the FMA community--though I agree those old strips look sooo cool! Esp when you disarm and use the knife against the BG in one swift motion (see how easy it is on vids? Now do it)
It seems that 'diving in'--a Silat principle--which PROTECTOR has found so usefull--should be due for more serious consideration among the FMA. And yes, the parallels to Tomiki Aikido are there, though I suspect PROTECTOR follows up with knee strikes, etc. rather than hoping for a cooperative Uke
Do other FMA styles use this manouver?
Apparently everyone relied on it first, to the detriment of other techniques. Judo GeneLe Bell made a similar statement regarding tackling at the Kodokan (Kano had to eliminate tackling.)
Now whether one calls it 'shooting' or tackling, the Gracies have brought leg takedowns back to the limelight.
The description that PROTECTOR has given to unarmed defense against the knife may serve as a wake up call to the FMA community--though I agree those old strips look sooo cool! Esp when you disarm and use the knife against the BG in one swift motion (see how easy it is on vids? Now do it)
It seems that 'diving in'--a Silat principle--which PROTECTOR has found so usefull--should be due for more serious consideration among the FMA. And yes, the parallels to Tomiki Aikido are there, though I suspect PROTECTOR follows up with knee strikes, etc. rather than hoping for a cooperative Uke
Do other FMA styles use this manouver?
hmmm . . . maybe this thread still has some life in it;
thanks for the comments, jringo.
frankly, the dive still sounds a little risky vs. a knife, but then i've never been attacked with a knife;
i am supposing that LEOs are now using the dive becuz it has proven effective in such an encounter; is this correct?
thanks for the comments, jringo.
frankly, the dive still sounds a little risky vs. a knife, but then i've never been attacked with a knife;
i am supposing that LEOs are now using the dive becuz it has proven effective in such an encounter; is this correct?
Knovice,
Coming up with some way to realistically recreate the empty hand against the knife scenario has always been the hard part.
When I first started training back in the 80's, we would feed committed FMA style attacks with aluminum trainers. This put us ahead of the schools that fed the 'idiot attacks' with rubber toy knives, but you still knew he had the knife and which hand it was in, and that the attacker had to slow it down at some point to prevent injuries. Back then we were doing passing and stripping or shots to the hand and arm to knock the knife loose.
We added the big red marking pen to the drill and told the attacker to keep cutting until he was locked, stripped or controlled. Since the attacker knew you weren't going to bust him up, he would dance around, flicking the 'knife/pen' in and out, marking your arms up. This was very frustrating, as the fancy moves weren't working and you would end up covered in red. We started to work back in strikes and kicks to slow or stun the attacker, but if you still wanted to do a strip or lock, you couldn't wear boxing gloves, so once again you were pulling your blows.
With the advent of the protective Redman and FIST suits you could wail on the attacker and knock him down or drive him back. However, now he had big padded forearms and gloves, so you couldn't get your strikes to these areas to disarm and getting a grip for a lock or strip was almost impossible.
The most realistic training exercise I have worked was with an attacker wearing a partial FIST suit, with his arms and hands uncovered. We did this both as a 'known attacker' drill, with the BG facing you with a knife out and trying to cut you and as a 'surprise attack', with the knife behind the BG's back coming out in either hand at close range.
In the long range drill there was lots of low line kicks and limb destructions. The attacker could work the drill with 2 or 3 people and then had to take a break, because his arms were all beat up. In the close range drill a lot of us automatically did some variation of the dive technique, described in my previous reply. Most of the time the BG got knocked on his butt if we did our part. I got to be the man in the suit, which is why I believe in the power of this enttry/strike. On one attack I actually did a picture perfect pass and strip, right up to feeding him own knife back. I still wouldn't plan on that for the street.
We all got cut as the defender and we all got killed at least once. I would really like my pistol or knife in this situation,
but I'm sure as hell not going to give up if I'm empty handed.
The reason we are teaching it to LEO's is that it is simple. There is really only two variations, dodge to the left or dodge to the right, with subsets of high or low. It can be used against any agressive offensive attack with the arms. Your average LEO is not a martial artist and doesn't want to spend a whole lot of time with Defensive Tactics so we teach the simplest effective technique.
Coming up with some way to realistically recreate the empty hand against the knife scenario has always been the hard part.
When I first started training back in the 80's, we would feed committed FMA style attacks with aluminum trainers. This put us ahead of the schools that fed the 'idiot attacks' with rubber toy knives, but you still knew he had the knife and which hand it was in, and that the attacker had to slow it down at some point to prevent injuries. Back then we were doing passing and stripping or shots to the hand and arm to knock the knife loose.
We added the big red marking pen to the drill and told the attacker to keep cutting until he was locked, stripped or controlled. Since the attacker knew you weren't going to bust him up, he would dance around, flicking the 'knife/pen' in and out, marking your arms up. This was very frustrating, as the fancy moves weren't working and you would end up covered in red. We started to work back in strikes and kicks to slow or stun the attacker, but if you still wanted to do a strip or lock, you couldn't wear boxing gloves, so once again you were pulling your blows.
With the advent of the protective Redman and FIST suits you could wail on the attacker and knock him down or drive him back. However, now he had big padded forearms and gloves, so you couldn't get your strikes to these areas to disarm and getting a grip for a lock or strip was almost impossible.
The most realistic training exercise I have worked was with an attacker wearing a partial FIST suit, with his arms and hands uncovered. We did this both as a 'known attacker' drill, with the BG facing you with a knife out and trying to cut you and as a 'surprise attack', with the knife behind the BG's back coming out in either hand at close range.
In the long range drill there was lots of low line kicks and limb destructions. The attacker could work the drill with 2 or 3 people and then had to take a break, because his arms were all beat up. In the close range drill a lot of us automatically did some variation of the dive technique, described in my previous reply. Most of the time the BG got knocked on his butt if we did our part. I got to be the man in the suit, which is why I believe in the power of this enttry/strike. On one attack I actually did a picture perfect pass and strip, right up to feeding him own knife back. I still wouldn't plan on that for the street.
We all got cut as the defender and we all got killed at least once. I would really like my pistol or knife in this situation,
but I'm sure as hell not going to give up if I'm empty handed.
The reason we are teaching it to LEO's is that it is simple. There is really only two variations, dodge to the left or dodge to the right, with subsets of high or low. It can be used against any agressive offensive attack with the arms. Your average LEO is not a martial artist and doesn't want to spend a whole lot of time with Defensive Tactics so we teach the simplest effective technique.
protector;
plan "a" would be: run away.
plan "b" would be: turn over a chair or table, or throw something (wallet, handkerchief, beer, coins, etc.) into attacker's face so that i can utilize plan a.
i've only been taught three basic waza vs. the knife, that i have any confidence in; however, based on your posts (& your tapes), i am taking another look at the technique that i know as "shomen-ate" ("the dive") . . .
i started this thread (& bought your tapes) to get an fma perspective on unarmed vs. knife . . .
i have not been disappointed by the information i have gleaned from you & the other members of this forum; thanks again.
plan "a" would be: run away.
plan "b" would be: turn over a chair or table, or throw something (wallet, handkerchief, beer, coins, etc.) into attacker's face so that i can utilize plan a.
i've only been taught three basic waza vs. the knife, that i have any confidence in; however, based on your posts (& your tapes), i am taking another look at the technique that i know as "shomen-ate" ("the dive") . . .
i started this thread (& bought your tapes) to get an fma perspective on unarmed vs. knife . . .
i have not been disappointed by the information i have gleaned from you & the other members of this forum; thanks again.
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
My plan, primary, is to not have to go empty hand Vs. steel. I know that might sound condescending but it is not meant that way.
I always try to have a weapon and don't play in the realm of "Unarmed Games."
I would go for a JSP Bandana (Bandando specifically) as it is reinforced along the seams for such things. Then a good, leather belt, then a jacket...
Those are no replacement for guns, knives and batons, but they will work, just takes some time to develop the skill...and you have to work with them.
If I have to go unarmed vs. steel, then everything went wrong, so many things happened and I am in a bad place.
Unarmed against the knife is the absolute Last Ditch Survival Effort.
In cases like that, beating downwards with backfists or edge of hand blows to try to eject the knife out through shock transfer or causing dysfunction in the limbs is the Main Battle Plan in that instance.
Just doing that and actively trying to keep the knife off of me until I can gouge/rake/destroy an eye, hit the throat or low line kick their base with precious few kicks from Sikahran...
I think alot of the "bare" strips and locks are not going to work unless you are fighting people who are emaciated.
What we are talking about at times are ex-cons and Bikers, etc., who lift weights and such. Not all of them, but enough of them out there that you do not program yourself to try and strip a light knife out of someone's hand who has been pumping iron for a few years in the Joint.
Hey Don,
I guess I should have phrased that, "if you are totally screwed and can only resort to empty hands" what's your plan.
My long range plan is avoid the problem thru awareness, followed by applying .40 S&W hollowpoints as necessary, followed by O.C. spray, followed by judicious application of edged weapons, followed by kubotan or other small impact weapon, mixed in liberally with
any usefull environmental weapon, i.e. chairs, small animals, toxic chemicals, anything nasty I can pick up and send the BG's way. Yes, being attacked with a knife scares me sh!tless.
Beating downward with the edge of your hands or backfists onto his knife hand, is viable if you have the room to move. At the normal close range of the surprise knife attack, the 'dive entry' has a more survivable track record in my training.
I guess I should have phrased that, "if you are totally screwed and can only resort to empty hands" what's your plan.
My long range plan is avoid the problem thru awareness, followed by applying .40 S&W hollowpoints as necessary, followed by O.C. spray, followed by judicious application of edged weapons, followed by kubotan or other small impact weapon, mixed in liberally with
any usefull environmental weapon, i.e. chairs, small animals, toxic chemicals, anything nasty I can pick up and send the BG's way. Yes, being attacked with a knife scares me sh!tless.
Beating downward with the edge of your hands or backfists onto his knife hand, is viable if you have the room to move. At the normal close range of the surprise knife attack, the 'dive entry' has a more survivable track record in my training.
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
Yeah, I would prefer to give them some hot lead myself, unfortunately, that is not an option in the State where I live. One of the reasons I want to move, it's in the Top Ten.
Not so much for the Right to Pack, but for the attitude change in general towards firearms that seems to be better in those States that do pass CCW.
I don't work for the Alarm Company anymore, so I cannot chunk around town wherever with a 21 inch ASP like I used to and just flash three Photo IDs at someone who would ask about them.
Firearm=Instant Bust.
ASP=Big ? 75% Chance of Bust.
Knife=OK as long as it is not Auto or BaliSong, and I get someone who has not watched "Surviving Edged Weapons" recently.
It's the truth, and the truth doth suck.
Basically, it's Urban Survival. I think it would be totally criminal and negligent to have to ditch a firearm in order to just survive unscathed. That's a no-brainer.
The knife, on the other hand...hey, if a kid picks up a knife along the road...no big deal right? If they are old enough to be walking on a road unsupervised, they're big enough to get in the Kitchen Drawers I imagine.
Damned shame you have to think of such things.
------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Some of my Knives and other neat things
Not so much for the Right to Pack, but for the attitude change in general towards firearms that seems to be better in those States that do pass CCW.
I don't work for the Alarm Company anymore, so I cannot chunk around town wherever with a 21 inch ASP like I used to and just flash three Photo IDs at someone who would ask about them.
Firearm=Instant Bust.
ASP=Big ? 75% Chance of Bust.
Knife=OK as long as it is not Auto or BaliSong, and I get someone who has not watched "Surviving Edged Weapons" recently.
It's the truth, and the truth doth suck.
Basically, it's Urban Survival. I think it would be totally criminal and negligent to have to ditch a firearm in order to just survive unscathed. That's a no-brainer.
The knife, on the other hand...hey, if a kid picks up a knife along the road...no big deal right? If they are old enough to be walking on a road unsupervised, they're big enough to get in the Kitchen Drawers I imagine.
Damned shame you have to think of such things.
------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Some of my Knives and other neat things
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PROTECTOR:
What! You're not going to keep them and treasure them forever? I'm crushed (not to mention cheated out of my meager royalties)</font>
I'll buy a set from you in the future if you autograph them. HAHAHAHAHAHA
Actually, I have only seen the Advanced Tape and it was cool. I might have to take a look at the first two Volumes later on when I can "swing" it.
Pun fully intended.
I would really like to get the Ted LucayLucay video material on the Pocket Stick as well Edgar Sulite's one tape where he uses the Bandana to compare it to Illustrisimo and Keating's Bandana material.
------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Some of my Knives and other neat things
I was just watching these tapes again, and found I still liked them. I'm not a balisong guy, so I don't even watch the material re: openings, but the blade techs. seem straightforward and are well-explained.
I suppose the only caveats regarding the blade techs. have already been discussed/explained by Protector, in his previous posts.
Overall, I think this would be a good set for a non-FMA'er who wants to see an intro to FMA knife techs. (IMO: If you are totally non-FMA, but curious, then just get tape #3.)Beginners who are really interested in balisongs would probably get a lot out of them, too.
Knovice
I suppose the only caveats regarding the blade techs. have already been discussed/explained by Protector, in his previous posts.
Overall, I think this would be a good set for a non-FMA'er who wants to see an intro to FMA knife techs. (IMO: If you are totally non-FMA, but curious, then just get tape #3.)Beginners who are really interested in balisongs would probably get a lot out of them, too.
Knovice