Britain curbing knives?

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Jan 30, 2002
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I'd guess the next step would be to ban bad feelings among teen-age gangs.

:rolleyes:


Britain seeks to curb knife crime after slayings By JILL LAWLESS, Associated Press Writer
Thu Jun 5, 2:05 PM ET



Arsema Dawit is the latest name on a somber list.

The 15-year-old schoolgirl was found dead in an elevator at a south London apartment building this week, the 16th teenager slain in Britain's capital this year. Most, like Dawit, were stabbed to death — and most of their killers were other young people.

The deaths have sparked fears of a knife crime "epidemic" among Britain's young, and spurred the government to announce tougher penalties for teens caught carrying a blade.

"Carrying a knife is completely unacceptable," Prime Minister Gordon Brown said Thursday announcing an end to Britain's system of issuing warnings to some teenagers caught with knives.

Until now, warnings were given to most of those under the age of 18 found with knives. With the change, anyone 16 or over who carries a knife with a blade longer than 3 inches will be prosecuted. Those convicted face a penalty of up to four years in prison.

"Young people need to understand that carrying knives doesn't protect you, it does the opposite — it increases the danger for all of us, destroys young lives and ruins families," Brown said.

For a major city, London has a low murder rate. Police say there were 159 homicides from April 2007 to the same month this year, about a third the number in similarly sized New York. But the number of victims under age 18 has risen. According to police figures, 17 teenagers were killed in London in 2006, 27 in 2007, and 16 so far this year. Eleven of the 16 were stabbed to death.

Many young people say pressure to carry — and use — knives is growing.

"It's increasing. It's stupid things like 'you have spoken to my girlfriend, I'll slash you up,' or 'If I see him out, he's having it,'" said Monique Morrison, 21, one of a group of young people who met with the prime minister Thursday to discuss the problem.

The grim regularity of stabbings over the past few months has alarmed Londoners.

The victims include 18-year-old Rob Knox, who had a small part in the upcoming film "Harry Potter And The Half-Blood Prince," and was stabbed to death while trying to break up a brawl outside a south London bar on May 24. A 21-year-old has been charged with his murder.

Knox's smiling photo and his grieving parents appeared on the front of newspapers and on television news bulletins. Two weeks earlier, it had been the face and the family of Jimmy Mizen, a popular 16-year-old stabbed with a piece of glass outside a bakery. A 19-year-old is accused of his murder.

A 21-year-old student has been charged with killing Dawit, an Eritrean immigrant who sang in a church choir and had complained to police about an earlier assault.

"It's not even a shock anymore" to hear about stabbings, said 16-year-old Vogue Huell, a student from Bromley, the south London district where Knox was killed. "It's the whole gang culture, I think. As soon as one person gets stabbed, someone goes after another person."

London's new mayor, Boris Johnson, has also vowed to crack down on knife crime. His proposals include airport-style metal-detecting arches at train and subway stations. London police recently began an aggressive new program to search anyone they wish for knives without having to justify their suspicions beforehand.

Some experts, however, say the measures are little more than political posturing.

"I'm skeptical about whether the latest measures will have an effect," said Enver Solomon, deputy director of the Center for Crime and Justice Studies at King's College London.

He said most teens who carry knives do so because they have been the victims of crime.

"The clear message from research is that kids carry knives because they don't feel safe," Solomon said. "Unless you address that feeling of insecurity, you are not going to have a big impact on the number of kids carrying knives."

___
 
as is the fact that those on govt. benefits are typically housed by our socialist one size fits all govt. in anonymous hi-rise apartment blocks with no social amenities, no local industry, no public transport to get people back & forth to the city centre or to work should they wish to get off benefit, nothing for the kids to do after school but 'hang out' in community gangs, drink, take drugs, have sex, and no effective protective police presence except the occasional drive-by of unarmed police.

if they are lucky, they may have a small shop area with a convenience store and/or fish & chips take-away, but this will likely be closed due to shoplifting, vandalism and violence towards the owner/operators - who also are not allowed to protect themselves from criminals who for some reason do not follow the anti-weapons laws themselves.

of course, they also likely come from a family where their dad is elsewhere on the end of a chain of social workers and child support agency mandated child support payments which may or may not reach the remaining parent, their mom was a (just barely) teen-aged, and their granny is 26 years old and both were/are single mums...but then socialism has always been about catering for the masses by removing the rights of the individual along with their responsibilities...

as danny is no doubt aware, the knife/gun/sword/club/chair leg/screwdriver,rolled newspaper is not the weapon, the mind is the weapon, and you can carry that one wherever you want (at the moment).
 
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IMO the problem is that kids get away with too much in their early years. They get away with smoking, drinking, drugs, littering, minor assaults, grafitti, unsociable behaviour you name it. The police aren't interested because they are underage and the courts aren't interested. The kids do what they want when they want to who they want.

The problem escalates until they get to 16/18 at which point they are suddenly out of the blue told NO. For the first time in their lives the police lift them, prosecute them and jail them. The only issue is what the crime is they get done for that first time. Too often it appears to be an assault that leads to death or someone who has been assaulted before and has had enough kills someone because the police didn't deal with it.

There needs to be a way of letting kids know what is acceptable in our society. If they get no direction from their parents then that direction needs to come from society and it needs to happen early on.
 
Society in Britain is by now in a real (and prodigiously surveillanced) mess, partly because of drugs and there's also a whole lot of other factors such as an ever increasing sense of hopelessness and identity displacement, plus uncontrolled mass-immigration by incompatible elements. Political correctness and "human rights" rule.... rather selectively, of course.
We tend to get the worst ideas from the USA combined with the most negative governance processes of former communist regimes; ruled over by a horde of petty dictators - nested layers of alleged "public servants" who have progressively transformed themselves into masters of the public, indulging in legally enforced extortion and control-freakery. In some ways the bad elements amongst the ruled are emulating the rulers (or is it vice-versa?)....
So 16s and over are now supposedly to be clobbered? Pity that so much of the problem is now amongst the under 16s, therefore Brown is just peddling more vapourware (ie. spin-business as usual). People trying to stop yobs and scrotes from smashing or stealing their property nowadays tend to get arrested themselves.
And just to prove they're non-discriminatory the Stazi will doubtless now stop and strip-search more caucasian octogenarian grannies in case they've put the wrong type of paper in their wheelie bins or something seriously dangerous like that.
 
America moves toward Europe constantly. Watch closely. Barok promises to lead us to just such a utopia!
 
I suspect that selling alcohol to 16 yr old kids might have some influence.

No $h|7!:mad: I have never understood this about European culture. Let's give a depressive substance to a minor, a substance that impairs judgment and motor function, and be shocked when they lash out in violence with one another.

Of the several people that I know who have had their nose broken, been struck with something, or stuck with something pointy in a fight, 100% of them happened at a bar, behind a bar, or at an out of control party.

It really doesn't seem that absurd for the next wave of self defense classes to instruct us on how to protect ourselves when the attacker wields various fruit. Who woulda thought that Monty Python would be such visionaries:p:rolleyes:
 
Ball game over!

Commies win! Theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee commies Win!!

































Well, I'm taking it into extra innings myself.

may the Lord help us.

:(

Tom
 
I would like to cordially invite all the remaining decent English people, and their cutest women, to move to the USA and go shooting with us every Thursday after tea.
You can choose any number of places that have identical names to your present locations.
 
There's a lot of good replies here... especially these:

...but then socialism has always been about catering for the masses by removing the rights of the individual along with their responsibilities...

as danny is no doubt aware, the knife/gun/sword/club/chair leg/screwdriver,rolled newspaper is not the weapon, the mind is the weapon, and you can carry that one wherever you want (at the moment).

Maybe they should post a sign, "Obey the law- please do not kill one another." Because the method doesn't really matter. Dead is dead, whether it's a chair smashed over the head- or a spectacular movie-scene-like L.A.-style drive-by, complete with "assault rifles."

The drive-by, and the knifing draw attention to the method as the crime, and not the crime itself.

Kind of like when a dumb dog stares at your hand after you've thrown the stick. They fail to relate what's happened with how it happened, fixating on the how, not the what.

"Omigod, someone was just hanged. We've got to outlaw rope! Rope is dangerous!"

"Omigod, someone was just knifed. We've got to outlaw knives! Knives are dangerous!"

"Omigod, someone was just pushed out of a 5-story building. Tall buildings are dangerous! No more buildings over 30 feet!"

"Omigod, someone was just hit by a car. We've got to outlaw cars! Cars are dangerous!"

Absurd? A rational person doesn't think this way? They followed this logic long ago, with handguns- then all guns.


Mike
 
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Kind of like when a dumb dog stares at your hand after you've thrown the stick.


Mike?

That's really just "thumb envy."

:)

Kind of think that political responses to practical problems have less to do with the actual problem and more to the image of the politician responding. Most countries suffer from this.



Kis
enjoy every sandwich
 
Well, the opposable thumb and the ability to use (dangerous) tools is what got us into this business in the first place... :p Few other animals are out there beating each other with sticks, or poking each other with sharp objects.


Mike
 
No $h|7!:mad: I have never understood this about European culture. Let's give a depressive substance to a minor, a substance that impairs judgment and motor function, and be shocked when they lash out in violence with one another.

...

hi steely: it's illegal here to sell alcohol (or tobacco) to minors (under 18), or if you are older to buy it for them. they still get it. since entrapment is legal here, the police send in underage kids to buy booze or cigarettes from harried shop owners, sometimes with fake id cards, if they manage to get any booze or ciggies, the store owner gets prosecuted.

in the rest of europe, there is no prohibition, no stigma, and no attraction based on illegality, and one occasionally sees children have a quick glass of wine or a beer with their lunch. there does not seem to be any major problems with youth drinking.

as it was in the states back in prohibition, the very illegality makes it attractive and then attractive for control by less savoury individuals such as bootleggers and pushers. if it is not illegal, it hides itself back in the woodwork where kids ignore it as no big deal.
 
Well, the opposable thumb and the ability to use (dangerous) tools is what got us into this business in the first place... :p Few other animals are out there beating each other with sticks, or poking each other with sharp objects.


Mike

chimps do it, but they are our close relatives, some of us more closely related than others ;)
 
Restricting the sale of alcohol doesn't improve anything IMO. Making it a 'forbidden fruit' and a 'adults-only' thing only encourages kids to over-indulge, prove that they can handle it, show that they are 'mature', etc. etc.

If you think drinking laws keep alcohol away from kids you really need to take the blinders off. I don't even like bars, booze, or the people who do like them, and I was still offered/able to buy alcohol while underage over a dozen times.

The only thing drinking laws really do is keep some bad seeds out of the bars until they're full-grown.



My mother encouraged me to try a glass of wine with dinner or a beer at lunch a few times when I was still a young teen. She also told me that if I wanted to really try it out, she would be happy to let me do it at home. The result? I was was never interested or tempted by alcohol as a teen. Looking back, I'm really glad I never felt like I needed to get 'in' with the crowds who drank.

These days I've got some liquor in the cabinet and I'll have a pint or two with a friend, but that's enough for me.

Anyways, this thread has veered.
 
nothing for the kids to do after school but 'hang out' in community gangs, drink, take drugs, have sex


Now That's what I did when I was a kid and I carried a knife all the time and never stabbed anyone:D:thumbup:

I think you nailed it Kron when you said "one size fits all" rather than deal with the kids or even pass (and enforce) some sort of city ordinance they want to punish everyone including country dwellers who need a knife as a tool.

That's wrong.
 
It is hardly surprising that there is now a sick society, when you look at the longer-term policy intentions and beliefs of those at the top who direct the present system (which in Britain also means the EU, the source of almost all new laws in recent years -- is it mere chance that Barroso, President of the European Commission, is an allegedly former Maoist?).....
With leadership like this, what country needs external enemies, and what wonder its internal cohesion and infrastructure are becoming ever more ruined, along with its population?
 
I would like to point out that the knife is one of the favorite weapons amongst killers in Japan, as well. that isn't to say that they don't kill each other with guns.
As for the UK drinking laws, I read somewhere that 16 year olds could buy alcohol in a restaurant, but not in a bar.
Also, it might sound silly, but there are fashion trends in every part of life, not just clothing. Alfred Kroeber (the Dean of American Anthropology) first noted this and studied all kinds of cultural artifacts and how they follow the same fashion trends as clothing.
Teens killing each other with knives may very well be just another fashion trend, and not indicative of anything about life in the U.K.
I believe the British like to fight, it's in their blood. (We were founded by British, we ought to know.)
It is a part of biology in all creatures, as a matter of fact. It might seem "immoral," but it is most definitely natural. Send those kids to Afghanistan, I guess..
 
...
As for the UK drinking laws, I read somewhere that 16 year olds could buy alcohol in a restaurant, but not in a bar.
...

there is an exemption in the law that if a person is between the ages of 16 and seventeen and is having a table meal in a licensed premisis, and is accompanied by an adult (over 18), they may be served alcohol, but only beer, wine or cider. they still are not allowed to buy it themselves.

they are also only allowed in licensed premesis at all if accompanied by an adult, and are not allowed to buy, have bought for them, or otherwise consume alcohol on the premisis except as noted above.

the law, as usual, is an ass, as written it seems to imply that once you hit 16 you can have your parents buy you a beer in a restaurant, but when you hit seventeen they can't, until you hit 18 again. they meant someone 16 or over but under 18.

the law in the states is equally strange and unevenly applied, i went to college in new york, drinking age was 18 and we regularly went to the bar on weekends and had beer. went to visit some relatives in New Jersey one weekend and went out to dinner and had a beer with my meal. drinking age in NJ was 21. i was in my cadet uniform, and no one carded me luckily. didn't even think about it till afterwards.
 
[


That's really just "thumb envy."



Kismet, i am going to ask a question that i have been wondering about for a long time. remember this is embarassing for me. how big are average thumbs?i am quite shy about my thumbs and sneek a peek at others thumbs while at the gym.is this wrong?

i have experienced knife envy but never even considered thumb envy.

ryan
 
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