Brittle steel after heat treat

Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
20
I've tinkered with knifemaking over the years, but I've been trying to learn more about it lately. These are a few of my recent knives.

puukkos_zpsyvqijopb.jpg


The top one was a file and curly maple. The bottom two are all found materials*: an old shovel and a tooth from a spring harrow found returning to the Earth from whence they came and birch branches found fallen in the same woods.

With the bottom one, the spring harrow tooth, I decided to do some destructive testing on some samples. I heated them to non-magnetic with a propane torch, quenched in canola oil and then tempered at 400, 450, 500, and 550 for an hour on various samples. This is the same treatment I give the blades (tempering at 400, except for that bottom knife which was tempered with the sample pictured below), except that with the blades I heat to non-magnetic in a small forge and let them cool to black twice before the final heat and quench, which I probably should have done with the samples as well. The result was the same in all cases, the pieces snapped with very little bending.

Below is a picture of a piece cut off the harrow tooth and broken (left), which bent quite a bit before it snapped, and my last sample (tempered at 550). I can see that the grain is somewhat coarser in the sample.

broken_samples_zpsnzrthssk.jpg


In "real life" use (woodcarving, etc), I haven't had trouble with any of these knives, so maybe this is more of a theoretical problem than an actual one, but I'd rather know they're tougher than those samples. I would not be inclined to think I overheated the steel as the equipment I'm using is kind of hard pressed to get it to non-magnetic much less hotter, but maybe. Any ideas?

* Please note that I appreciate the benefits of known steel, and have some on order, but for this project the story behind the materials is an important part of the project itself.
 
Ok. All I have to judge heat with is my eyes and a magnet. I know I'm not the only person working with basic equipment like that.

What would overheated look like? This steel only got to just non-magnetic, so maybe a bright orange.

Is there anything else that would cause grain growth like that?
 
Non-magnetic is quite a bit cooler than bright orange!
 
A few things that may help...
Heat-treat at night, in the dark. This will allow you to see the colors better. I have a small shaded lamp right next to the quenching oil so I can see it, the only other light is the glow of the forge.
Do a google search for 'decalescence in steel', this is your surest method of gauging temperature shy of a thermocouple.
Research normalizing, thermal cycling, and grain refinement.
 
A few things that may help...
Heat-treat at night, in the dark. This will allow you to see the colors better. I have a small shaded lamp right next to the quenching oil so I can see it, the only other light is the glow of the forge.
Do a google search for 'decalescence in steel', this is your surest method of gauging temperature shy of a thermocouple.
Research normalizing, thermal cycling, and grain refinement.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...and-Video-Link-thread?p=12255875#post12255875
 
I'll look into the topics suggested so far, but here's what has me scratching my head. Continuing down the thread 12345678910 linked to, I find this video and if you look at the bit at about 0:30 where he's forging... I'm pretty sure I could leave a piece of steel in my little forge for an hour and it would never get that hot. And I could post any number of videos like that with knifemakers forging steel that looks for all the world to be much hotter than mine ever gets. So if they're not overheating their steel, how can I be overheating mine?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1024667-The-Youtube-and-Video-Link-thread?p=12925671#post12925671
 
That used to happen to me when I first started. I only had a forge and I would heat it up to a touch over non magnetic and I would quench in canola oil. I would temper in a old toaster oven . After this process I would finish out the grinding thinking everything was OK . One day I wanted to if it had any flexibility and put it in the vise .. It snapped and had some really coarse grain like yours .

Since you already know to use know steel if I were you I would abandon this project . I found that I would waste a lot of my personal time on lost causes . When making these knives if something is just not going right just move on ... Try to write down how you did the last one and change as necceassy . One thing to keep in mind to is tempering is really important part of this and sometimes you think you are doing it right but in reality your blades are to brittle. That's not the main problem here but it is something to keep in mind.

The best way to be successful is to set your self up for it. This unfortunately cost money . Good quality quench oils and a controllable kiln are the keys along with quality steel. I just hate to see you waste you time on things like unknown steel . Just because it cuts good really doesn't mean anything if its going to snap with the slightest flex. I went through all this stuff before.

Good luck
 
Lets go back to basic metallurgy 101:

1)CONTENT - A knife made from an unknown steel may be problematic in HT. Your steel choice probably isn't the cause of the trouble, but this is always a concern with second use steel. Beyond the carbon and alloy content, which one can guess at somewhat reasonably based on its past life, there is the internal condition from the former use and HT...which you can't know. The grain size is unknown, and there may be many microscopic disruptions in the grains from repeated use and flexing. Consider a leaf spring or harrow tine. The steel may be assumed to be 5160 for a leaf spring and 1080-1095 for a harrow tine. That will be good enough for a guestimate HT regime. A grain reduction cycle will reduce any possible large grain size. The problem is that the flexing over many years of use may have done things to the arrangement of the grains that will not be repairable easily, if at all. This is why using a new and known alloy content steel is recommended.

2) CONDITION - If a blade is forged, it goes through many long and high temperature cycles, followed by cooling as it is forged. The normal forging range for a high carbon steel is between 2100°F and 1500°F. At that temperature and repeated cycles, the grain will grow...sometimes to huge size. This is of no concern until it is time to harden the finished blade. If you just austenitize ( heat up a little past non-magnetic) and quench in oil, the resultant grain will be roughly what it was before the quench - usually large. Large grains disrupt (breaks) much more easily than fine grain. A grain refinement cycle is how to reduce the grain size ( and subsequently the brittleness). Start with a soak at a temperature that is well above the HT target. For simple high carbon steels, the HT target is between 1450F and 1500F, so start about 1600F. Heat evenly and hold at that temperature for about 5 minutes ( if using a forge, heat as close as your eye can guestimate and hold for a minute or so). Air cool to black and cool off in water. This will get everything in solution and set the grain size at a starting point. Re-heat to 1500F and when the hold is done, quench in the appropriate oil. Reheat to 1400F and quench in the appropriate oil. Now the grain size has been reduced to a much smaller size, and the steel is in a condition that will allow a good final hardening. Heat to the target temp, usually about 1475F, and hold for up to five minutes, then quench. Temper twice for one hour each at around 400F. Cool between the tempers and after the second by dunking in water or holding under a running faucet. Judging the HT temperature by eye is very inaccurate...often by several hundred degrees too high. A magnet helps get you in the ball park, but you are still guessing in a critical place where 25° can make a lot of difference.

3) TEMPERING - Tempering converts the very brittle fresh martensite into a tougher tempered martensite. This is very important, or the blade will fail in use. Most people temper far too low. A properly hardened steel like 1095 will be at Rc663-64 with a temper of 400F, and at Rc60-61 with a temper of 500F. The words to notice are "properly hardened". Most people don't get the full potential from their steel. Unless using a non-standard knife steel, all tempering should be at or above 400F. Tempering will make the grains a bit less likely to come apart ( break/chip), but it won't cure large grain size. Blade steel is in thin sections, and the HT and temper are fairly basic, so two one hour tempers are all most blades need. A few very high alloy steels need other treatments ( sub-zero/cryo) and longer or additional tempers.

4) CARBON DISTRIBUTION - Lets discuss what we really need/want to happen in the steel. The carbon combines with the iron to make iron carbide - AKA cementite. The rest of the iron either stays as ferrite ( plain iron) or combines with excess carbon as other structures. Often things are added to the steel to make it harder or tougher......but it is the carbon-iron bonding that makes the steel work as a knife. There is a magical sweet spot in the balance of carbon and iron...called the eutectic point. It is when there is .77-.83% carbon ( .80% for basic knife steel discussion). Our beloved 1084 steel is at that ratio nearly exactly, and is called a eutectoid steel. This eutectoid property means that there is no extra carbon to be dealt with. That means no soak time to allow things to get into solution, a simple and complete hardening with minimal effort, and reliable/repeatable outcome. This is why 1084 is recommended to all smiths who use a forge for HT.
Steel below this point is called hypo-eutectoid, and steel above it is called hyper-eutectoid. Hypo-eutectoid steel is pretty fool proof. Once all the carbon is in solution, it combines with the iron and forms whatever percentage cementite it can, leaving the rest as plain ferrite. Hyper-eutectoid gets more complicated, as we have to direct the carbon to go where we want it and not where we don't.

5) PUTTING IT TOGERTHER - The above info tells us that the best mix of carbon and iron in out blades is about .84% carbon....so why do many steels have more carbon? The carbon is there to make the steel do different things and to alloy with other elements. In truth, we need a tad extra carbon to account for carbon loss, and to tie up the manganese and a few other minor elements that are in almost all steel. A tenth of a percent or so takes care of that. Any excess is going into carbides with other alloys, or remains as austenite. The subject of exactly what and how it combines is way beyond this simple explanation, so suffice to say that only about .85% of the carbon gets used to make a steel blade. The rest goes into making it have other attributes. That little tidbit tells up that we really don't want...or need....to dissolve all the carbon from where it is happily sitting when we harden the blade....if...IF...IF...we have properly conditioned the steel before the final HT. In the final hardening, lower austenitization temps will allow enough carbon to be available to form a perfect steel, without breaking up nice hard carbides that have already formed and well distributed. In some specialized hardening processes, like forming a hamon, this is a critical part of getting the maximum results. This is part of why different steels have different carbon and alloy content makes the target higher of lower. For basic simple carbon steels - 1050 hardens properly at 1525F, 1084 at 1500F, and 1095 at 1475F....see a pattern. The more excess carbon, the lower the austenitization temperature.




SUMMING IT UP - This is all a big part of why using found steel and judging temperature in HT by eye is not recommended for newer smith with simple equipment ( or at all). The steel will probably be hardenable, and the eyeball HT and quench will probably harden it....but how much of what makes a knife blade good is being accomplished ??? 30%, 50%, 75%.....you don't know......and it is a guarantee that it isn't 100%.

This isn't going to stop people from using old farm tools and car parts for making knives, or doing HT in a simple home built forge....and it should not be read as saying such.
By using as much of the above information as possible a smith can control the outcome to a higher degree.
 
I'll look into the topics suggested so far, but here's what has me scratching my head. Continuing down the thread 12345678910 linked to, I find this video and if you look at the bit at about 0:30 where he's forging... I'm pretty sure I could leave a piece of steel in my little forge for an hour and it would never get that hot. And I could post any number of videos like that with knifemakers forging steel that looks for all the world to be much hotter than mine ever gets. So if they're not overheating their steel, how can I be overheating mine?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1024667-The-Youtube-and-Video-Link-thread?p=12925671#post12925671

Colour is subjective, ambient light, the proper capture by the camera, and the proper display by your screen, proper interpretation by your eyes.

It's all different


You need an objective measurement.
 
Well, this certainly gives me plenty to think about and experiment with. I have a few dozen puukkos worth (though I'll probably make some other styles as well) of 1084 and 5160 on its way, so I can put it into practice with a known steel.

I don't consider it a waste of time working with the found steel. I learn a lot with each knife outside of just the steel work. Also, this is ultimately a hobby, and the knives I've made so far have held up in actual use, so they seem to be adequately durable for their intended use. But that doesn't mean I don't want to improve my skillset and make the next ones better than the ones that came before.
 
Back
Top