Broken knife....etiquette question on warranty

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Chiro75

Chiro75

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I'll keep this brief. I came into ownership of a Greco MST II in pretty good shape ealier this week. I am the second owner. I love the knife! I went out for a light hike and wanted to give the knife a preliminary test for a review, so one of the things I always do is stab the point into wood and pry it out to test point strength. I have done this on most of the knives I own, and I suspected this to be an easy test for a knife of 1/4" A-2 to handle, especially one from a maker with a reputation for making bombproof knives! Anyway, I found an old log of medium-soft wood which was even softer because it was wet, and buried a little over 1/4" of the point into it. I got the bend to about 10 degrees, very little stress, and about 1/2" of the point snapped clean off! What a sickening sound, if you haven't had it happen to you yet! Yuck! I am a big fan of John's knives, and ironically, I am going to the Badger knife show tomorrow where apparently he will have a booth set up. My dilemma is this: I am the second owner, and despite an obvious defect in the heat treat or, more likely, a defect in the steel, the warranty really doesn't cover me. I had every intention of buying another Greco piece tomorrow, too! Should I ask nicely and see what he tells me? Also, is a knife show the proper place to bring up a warranty question with a maker, or should I write to him at a later date? I figured I would take the knife with me and just give him a brief rundown while I look at his table. I was planning to ask him if he wants to see the knife and hopefully get a replacement squared away right then and there, but that would also give him the option of saying "not now...write or call when I'm not at a show". What do you think I should do? Please reply promptly because I'mleaving for the show tomorrow AM.

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I'd say definitely take it along and ask him to look at it. It would be much better to see it in person.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with asking, even if it isn't covered under a warranty. Of course there's much to be said about your initial approach, after some initial conversation a "What can you tell me about this" question would certainly be appropriate.

DaveH
 
That's a tough call. Do you show him the knife in the presence of other potential buyers ? I think I would probably be descrete and go ahead - maybe hitting his table during a short lull where he could give it a quick look. Unless you are loud and socially heavy-footed, which I doubt you are, I wouldn't think that he would choose to be terse. Trust your instincts as far as timing, and I would think that all would be cool.
 
Show him the knife and talk to the man. It shouldn't be a problem

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The thorn stands to defend the Rose, yet it is peaceful and does not seek conflict
 
Whatever the way you would approach it, I would appreciate knowing what the end results were.

-Cliff
 
Thanks, guys! Luckily my training as a doctor has given me the ability to approach potentially upsetting situations with a lot of tact, so that shouldn't be a problem! I just didn't know if I should even bother. I will keep you posted as to how it goes, as well as give a full review of the knife show in general! I dunno if I'll even be able to sleep tonight! It's like adult christmas!
biggrin.gif


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Most knife makers, custom or commercial, expressly exclude "prying" or "levering" from their warranties. Hardness, for edge holding, and resilience are enemies of each other.

"A knife is the least efficient and most expensive prybar you'll ever own."


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
I think that if you try to break the tips off knives and they break you shouldn't complain. The knifemaker should tell you
enjoy your broken knife but he'll probably
give you a new one. You abused the knife in a manner in which knives aren't supposed to be used and you're cheating a knifemaker by expecting him to replace the knife.
 
Chiro,
saw John & Sherry today at the show and bought a knife from them. Very nice folks! I am somewhat amazed that the knife could break; those things are huge! If warranty does not include prying damage, what about paying to have them re-grind & re-heat treat (if this isn't impossible)?

You'll have fun at the show! Tell us about the loot you will get!
 
Big surprise that that is your position in this matter, Tom! I have performed this test on probably 30 other knives of many steels, hardnesses, and qualities. If you're trying to tell me that a 1/4" A-2 knife sold expressly as being bombproof can't handle 1/4" of wet, soft wood, then you're plain crazy! This test is easily passable by nearly any knife. I am not knocking John's products, nor am I suggesting that I am entitled to a new knife, but I think you would have trouble proving that a knife of these dimensions isn't supposed to handle a bit of stabbing and prying. I agree that no knife should be used as a prybar, but then again this was nothing you wouldn't expect an outdoors knife to be able to do. You could put this much pressure on a knife tip with regular chopping.

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[This message has been edited by Chiro75 (edited 03-24-2000).]
 
I would definitely approach him, as this is simply part of his business. I am sure you will have the decorum to handle the situation with tact and good will.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA
 
Do you know the difference between an H beam
and an I beam? They don't interchange.
The fact remains that the knife didn't fail chopping or doing things a knife is supposed to do. Should have been able to pry without breaking? That might seem logical to assume because of it's size but not necessarily so.
Should you expect it to? NO
Look at your I beam and H beam again. They're made to support the load in one direction. Just because a knife looks big and beefy doesn't mean that it can or should be used in a maner different that it was designed to function. When you decide to use a knife in an improper manner you run the risk of breaking it. A broke tip is not an indication of a bad knife just that it was used badly.
 
Tom, I would agree with you if the mechanism of the break were different. The fact is that the knife broke while lightly prying a very soft substance. If I had clamped it in a vise at the tip I would have expected this, but a soft wood like pine should not break the tip off a knife like this unless it is way overhardened or there was a defect in the steel. I see high end bicycle parts break all the time due to manufacturing defects, so I would assume impurities in the steel causing stress risers probably isn't altogether uncommon. In any case, I will present the knife to John and tell him in full detail what happened and see what he says. For what it is worth, I have performed the same test on A-2 knives taken to 62 Rc or slightly higher and not had a single problem. As I've stated, this test has been done by me dozens of times with no problems whatsoever. It is a very light test to see how point strength is. Also, the fact that the knife actually cracked and broke higher than the leverage point
between the knife and the wood suggests to me that this area was a weak point caused by some sort of stress riser.

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Steve, take it with you, but be discrete if there is a large crowd around. Talk to him about it first, tell him what happened and explain that you know it was probably some freak of nature that such a knife could break. It might be more tactful to ask about a repair/regrind and see if he thinks it would simply be simpler to warranty the knife. Ask if he would like to see the knife at that point, or at a later time, so that he has the choice and isn't having a problem thrust upon him while he's in the midst of handling show-goers. Most custom makers, when given a choice, will work with the customer to rectify any problem, but if they feel "confronted", may not be as cooperative.

Having met John and Sherry, and talking to him several times over the course of a day at the local Wolverine Show, he truly comes across as an "old school" gentleman of integrity. I have a feeling that a contrite explanation of what happenedcan bring at least a suitable compromise to the situation.

Good luck, Steve, let us know how things go. As the owner of a Greco Companion, it certainly comes across as bulletproof and hella-strong, so I'm as surprised by this occurance as you are.

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Don LeHue

Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings...they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
 
Chiro 75,
Sorry to hear about the damage to your used knife. But I might go back to the person who was the owner of this knife. Who know's what this blade went thru before you received it. I know of a old saying, Buyer beware. I hope this gets resolved for you quickly.

Good Luck
Jeff
 
Chiro, you're planning on buying another Greco tomorrow you said. My guess would be if you asked him at the same time to reground the broken knife, HIS question would be, "What happened?" Then you can explain, if he says, "That shouldn't happen, I'll take care of it." You're home free! I doubt he'll be too hard on you after you just bought a Knife from him, because then you're a customer, not someone looking for a free ride. Timing is everything. Good luck!
 
I am the one who sent the knife to Chiro75 and I am shocked that this would have happened. I originally purchased the knife directly from John back in the fall of 98 for a camping trip. The knife was then primarily used to split logs and to cut rope. Since then it has not really been used in many chores except for the occasional cardboard box. I asked Chiro75 to talk to John tomorrow and if he won't do anything about it then I asked Chiro75 to send back the blade to me. Maybe I could get someone on Bladeforums to reprofile the blade.

Frank Q.
 
Hmm...he may offer to fix your knife to protect his reputation. I dont think he should be obligated to, but you have already claimed "obvious" bad heat treat. How do you know? You ask if you should bring it up at the show or not. Why do you ask that? Are you not wanting to humiliate him in front of customers? Hmm, a bit late since you have already come on the worlds most popular knife type forum, and stated "obvious" bad heat treat. Very poor tact. Look, I dont know just what you stuck that knife into, but I can tell you what I know from doing the same thing. First off, a full power stab into the end of a dense log to see if you can break the knife is silly. During the testing we did at Lynn Griffiths, we did that very thing. We knew a test like that is worthless, and also knew the knives would break. I broke my Benchmade Nimravus doing that, no surprise there. It would have been totally wrong for me to expect Benchmade to fix it, I didnt even ask. I am not talking about those little 'pokes' into a 2x4 that cold steel does on their video, I have done that with many knives and they do fine. I am talking about really stabbing that tip into a dense log. I have a Busse 7, and I would be willing to bet that if I really crammed that tip into a good log (not a rotted out one) that I could bust the tip on it. I sure would not come on here and claim that the knife was faulty, that would make me an idiot. Besides, I have a 7 dollar pry bar whose 'tip' strength is greater than any knife I own. If I were you, I would learn a lesson from this "use the proper tool for the job". Granted, many of these 'bomb proof' knives can work for certain things they were not made for in a pinch, but a little common sense is called for here. If I were you, I would call him after the show, tell him that YOU broke the knife by doing something it was not made for, and offer to pay him to fix the knife. Also, dont put him on the spot by purchasing a knife first, just so you can spring the broken one on him thinking that he oughta fix it just because you bought a new one. The above is just my opinion, take it how you want.

Richard
 
I think Richard makes a lot of sense. Testing Your knives to the point of destruction (you did say it visibly bent) and being surprised that Failure Occured is silly. This is Your fault. Not Necessarily the makers. To test the makers real skill would take a large number of samples. And you should tell him to make something designed to resist breaking when jammed into a log and Torqued. Bet it wouldn't look anything like the knife you broke.

Paracelsus

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 03-25-2000).]
 
Richard, you read my post wrong. I did not do a "full power stab" into the log. I pushed the end of the knife 1/4" into the wood, and it went in very, very easily. This is not a full power stab. I have done the same test dozens of times with no problems. I also do not expect John to replace the knife, but I think it should be brought to his attention, especially in light of the fact that it broke higher up on the blade than where the leverage point was between the wood and the blade. I never test knives to destruction, but the light point strength test is a stress on the knife that can easily happen during normal use, so it is essential for knives I plan on using outdoors. If John tells me to take a flying leap, then that's his prerogative. All I really needed to know is whether or not a knife show was the right place to speak to him about it! Like I said, I would agree with you 100% if I had clamped the knife off in a vise or pounded 2 inches of the tip into a block of hardwood, but the reality of
the matter is that the knife went in 1/4" (not very much!) and broke at 1/2" on very soft, almost rotting wood.


Paraclesus, I think my words didn't transfer my meaning. When I said I had the knife bent to ten degrees, I didn't mean the knife blade was actually bending, like on the ABS mastersmith test. What I meant was that the knife was at 10 degrees from true (that's about one inch of handle movement in this case), and the tip snapped right off.


And, finally, one other thing to Richard. I did not say there was obviously bad heat treat. I said there was obviously a problem with the heat treat or the steel. I see problems like this in the bike shop all the time. I have seen some of John's other knives and they seem well-built, but this is the first one I've actually used. I do not intentionally try to take knives to failure, and I can assure you that if I had forseen this, I would never had conducted the test. I buy knives to use them. My budget doesn't allow for broken knives that can't be used, so I am very careful with knives. In fact, I have had people email me after a review asking why I didn't do this test and that test, and my response is always the same: I am trying to see how the knife performs in reasonably realistic tests, not break the knife in a manner it wasn't meant to be used. You did misread my post, or at least read into the meaning more than what is fair. I agree that burying the tip as far into wood as possible is stupid
but this is not what I did, and I did not bend the knife until it broke either. I said there was an "obvious" problem because the knife did not break where the stress was being placed, so that to me is strange. Also, I am not dragging GReco's name through any mud, either. I am a fan of his work and will remain so, but I do think it was important to the discussion that the readers know what the knife in question is. I like John's knives very much, and this doesn't change that fact.

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