Broken knife....etiquette question on warranty

[Boriqua]

My 2

I would speak to the man about the failure and any possible replacement or reprofileing at the show but I think bringing the broken knife is inapropriate. With a table full of wares and a room full of potential customers it may come off as something akin to blackmail. He may feel pressed into making restitution just to keep the knife in the bag. Tell him what happened, work out the details and deal with the particulars after the show.

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ALex

http://home.att.net./~a.boriqua

 

[jacko]

I would think one way would be to call him on the phone and let him know the situation. And if he would like to see it at the show or not. And from there you would know where you stand on the issue.

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"ALWAYS WATCH YOUR SIX"

 

[Richard]

Ok Chiro. Thanks for the clarification. To stick to your question then, no, I would not bring it to the show

For those who are curious, here are the tip strength results that a few forum members and myself and Lynn Griffith did. These are full power stabs into the end of log you see the knives resting on. As I stated, this is a silly test IMO, but we did it only for fun, and to make a point. That point is, knives are good cutters, good penetrators but terrible pry bars.

Richard

 

[Richard]

Also Chiro, in your response you say now that you 'pushed' the tip in. However, in the start of this thread you said ...."so one of the things I always do is stab the point into wood and pry it out to test point strength." ....notice the word stab. Also, you posted this same topic in the reviews forum... http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001507.html ... There, you said ...."I went to test point strength, and using a log of soft, wet (it rained the last two days here) wood, I stabbed the point in about 1/4-1/2" and bent the knife to pop the wood out.".... Again, the word stabbed. I guess you can see where I assumed you stabbed instead of 'pushed' as you now say.

Richard

 

[Cobalt]

Chiro, you said that the knife is advertised as bomb proof. I don't think what you did even comes close to exceeding that statement.

1/4 INCH OF THE TIP, GUYS!!!!

INTO SOFT WOOD!!!!!

1/2 INCH BROKE OFF!!!

Anyone that says that it was an abusive test, has never really given a knife a decent workout.

If the maker or any knife maker tells me that this was unreasonable, then their "tough" knife isn't worth buying. I don't think you will have problem with having him fix it.

Now, I think it may have been a better idea to not state who the maker is and deal with this off line first and then post the good results.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Similar to what Cobalt said, ten degrees is an extremely poor break point and a hard or soft stab into pine is nothing to get excited about. I would be curious if there is any maker on bladeforums that thinks this break indicates a reasonable level of performance given the steel and the geometry. If they do, I would appreciate them letting me know as I don't want to have anything to do with them. Even my 3/32" 62 RC light utility blade that Mel Sorg made can do this easily (I have done it, and much more stressful work).

I just took the weakest blade I own, the leatherman supertool's plain edge and put it in a vice 1/2" from the point. Bending it 25 degrees to the right and left it would return to true. I then did stabs into the end of some spruce 1/4" and split it apart by hard pulls to the side. Finally I did full power stabs into pressboard getting about 3/8" penetration. Pulls to about 25 degrees did nothing.

Finally to get the deformation limit I pulled past 45 degrees which resulted in a slight bend in the tip, it was deflected a little over a mm to an extent of about 3 mm back from the tip. Doing the opposite to the other side straightened it.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 03-25-2000).]

 

[Walt Welch]

Cliff; I have to admire your dedication. To put to the test every claim, no matter what its' merit, does you credit.

I really don't think that this was necessary, however. It was obvious that TomW's posts were to put it politely, rather extreme in their position, and illogical. For example, here is what TomW said:

I think that if you try to break the tips off knives and they break you shouldn't complain. The knifemaker should tell you
enjoy your broken knife but he'll probably
give you a new one. You abused the knife in a manner in which knives aren't supposed to be used and you're cheating a knifemaker by expecting him to replace the knife.

But here is what you said in your original post, Chiro75:

reputation for making bombproof knives! Anyway, I found an old log of medium-soft wood which was even softer because it was wet, and buried a little over 1/4" of the point into it. I got the bend to about 10 degrees, very little stress, and about 1/2" of the point snapped clean off!

Chiro75, what you describe is hardly abuse. Further, for TomW to accuse you of trying to cheat a knifemaker is not only illogical, but absurd. After all, Chiro, you came to the forum to find out what you should do!

Further, Cliff confirmed what most of us already knew; even an inexpensive knife should tolerate the rather mild lateral stress that Chiro described.

I should stipulate that I do know the difference between an I beam and an H beam. I would be very interested to have TomW post a picture of one of his knifes made from either one.

Is it just me, or do the misanthropic, curmudgeonly posters (other than myself) always seem to have no e-mail, web page, or even location of residence?

The misanthrope from Alamo, CA. Walt

 

[TomW]

Sorry the I beam H beam thing is over your head Doc. They were mentioned to bring up the point that they were each designed so support loads in a different manner.
A knife is made to be used an a manner that was not the way that chiro used it. Is that simple enough for you doc? Knives aren't made to be bent sideways. If you do so expect them to break. Is that simple enough or you to understand? Chiro abused the knife
and is not entitled to a replacement.
Why i chose not to post my E-mail address is none of your damn business. I'm well known in the knife business and easy enough to reach for people that have a valid reason to contact me. Do your whining here. I get enough junk mail.

 

[Bronco]

I'm sorry Tom, but I just can't agree. It seems to me that the relatively minor stresses Chiro subjected his knife to fall well within the limits of what a utility knife should be capable of handling. Aren't there any number of unremarkable tasks regularly performed in the field by outdoorsmen, such as say dressing out a deer, where these types of stresses can be routinely encountered? Sure, it may have been better if Chiro started this thread describing what happened to his knife made by a "well known maker", but that's water under the bridge at this point.
Chiro- I'd bring the knife with me but not present it openly unless/until requested by Mr. Greco.

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Semper Fi

 

[James Mattis]

Point of Order - Let's keep this discussion on steel, and not on personalities. I sense irritability here.

A couple of conventional rules of decorum in debate:

- Address the chair or the assembly, and not the previous speaker.

- Speak against the position you disagree with, and not the person you disagree with.



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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Walt :

an inexpensive knife should tolerate the rather mild lateral stress that Chiro described.

Yes, the reason I provided the example was to actually give physical form for the idea being presented - that it is reasonable for a semi-custom blade in A2 to be less durable than the blade on a Leatherman Supertool.

I have discussed limits with people before but this one is the furthest I have seen yet.

TomW :

Knives aren't made to be bent sideways.

Then they are not meant to be used at all.

Provide a list of makers that think it is reasonable for a 10 degree flex from handle to tip to break one of their knives in a steel and geometry similar to what Chiro described. In fact I would be curious if this was possible in any functional knife geometry.

The only possibility would be fracture from the stab. Now the force that Chiro was using was nothing as it resulted in a 1/4 - 1/2" penetration into a soft wood.

It might be possible to break a light utility knife (1/8" or less stock, full taper, very hard high alloy steel), by blasting it very hard at a piece of hard wood, but of course that is not what Chiro did, nor was it the type of knife he was using.

I think I will try this tomorrow with the WM. I might not be able to get a secure enough grip though and may have to use the F1 instead.

-Cliff

 

[Ben E Hana]

I guess the I beam H beam reference went over my head too Walt.I always try to preserve the tips on my knives so I dont pry very much but a properly heat treated hard use knife should have passed that test IMO.
Chiro just keep the situation discreet and dont go in expecting anything and all will be o.k.If he replaces the knife he is a good guy (and no you aren't ripping him off by accepting a replacement-sorry Tom but you are dead wrong there)If he doesn't replace it treat it as a learning experience.You might want to see if he is going to repace it or fix it before you buy another one

Either way,I want to know how John handles this because I am buying a few of his knives based on his great reputation.I'm sure he will take good care of you.
troy

 

[Richard]

I think it should be pointed out, Chiro has said he was surprised that the knife broke, and that its 1/4" A2. I doubt the tip is 1/4" thick. If it was, then I too would be surprised, but I dont think thats the case. Chiro, how thick is the tip that broke? From the pics I have found, it would seem to be fairly thin, and therefore subject to failure during prying, no surprise there.

BTW, regarding what I see to be an implicattion that tomW maybe a troll, because his email isnt listed, I will say, I know he is a real person, I know the city he lives in, and yes, I even know his email address as I have exchanged emails a few times

If he chooses to keep it private, thats his choice.

Richard
richard@rapfire.net

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Richard :

it would seem to be fairly thin, and therefore subject to failure during prying

This would lower the stress level required to induce fracture not the angle, it would actually have the opposite effect on that. I can bend the tip of my 420V fillet blade far past 10 degrees before it reaches the deformation limit - and when this is reached it plastically deforms, it doesn't violently snap.

-Cliff

 

[Cobalt]

Richard, I'm sure the tip was not 1/4 inch thick. The point(so to speak) is that penetration of a blade tip 1/4 inch into wood of any kind should not have caused breakage so easily with only 10 degrees bend. In fact it should have pried wood splinters out. I have done this thousands of times with all the knives I use, including some folders without a problem. If the knife had been jammed in a couple of inches into hard wood and then pried with, there may be more of a point of discussion. 1/4 inch depth just isn't any big deal.

TomW, your H-beam and I-beam reference isn't lost on me, since I doubt there is many in here that know more than myself about structural members and design. So lets compare knives. Lets say I buy a 6 inch long 5/32 inch thick skinning blade(this is my I-beam). I then buy my 5/16 inch thick CS Recon Scout with a 7 inch blade(this is my H-beam). One is designed to take more lateral force than the other due to greater thickness. If knives that thick weren't meant to take bending then they wouldn't be that thick in the first place since they loose out in the cutting department in comparison with thinner blade knives.

Does this make sense? TomW, if you are a knife maker, plase let me know, because as Cliff mentioned earlier, I want to steer clear of makers that think that what happened here is abuse.

James, I kept my post civil.

 

[db]

It is very hard for me to believe any knife would snap with only a 10 degree bend, even with a defective heat treat, or steel. I have even flexed glass more than what Chiro has said he did with this knife.
Chiro Says himself he is not covered under the warranty. So why does he think he should bring up replacement or repare anyplace with the maker? If he does take it to the show I hope he has some class and leaves it in the trunk. Now if the maker wants to see it he can say it is in my car if you would like to see it now. This leaves it up to the maker if he would like to deal with it now or later.

 

[TomW]

Cobalt instead of worrying who to steer clear of how about you telling us all the knifemakers that guarantee their knives against somebody sticking the knife in something and snapping off the tip.
Pick up knives 2000 and start in the As.
I'm eager to see your choices.

 

[L6steel]

I agree with Db!! Chiro, are you positive about how deep the tip was embedded and how far you bent it?? 10 degrees is such a small angle to be able to eyeball with any level of accuracy. I also agree with Tom. I'll replace or repair any knife I make as long as it was damaged in regular use, but not under abuse. Thats like buyin a new car and ramming it into a brick wall to test the bumper. Take care! Michael

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Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!

 

[Richard]

So, anyways, I ordered a Kydex sheath from a famous sheath maker. He "claims" that his kydex sheaths are well made, and that they are safe because the knife wont stab through. Well, if he says they wont punture, they must be good. So, I was out one day and decided to test it. I grabbed my cordless DeWalt drill and a high speed bit. I put it directly on the sheat and hit the trigger. I really didnt push that hard, but ZIP, next thing I knew there was a hole in it. Should I call this guy and see if he will send me another sheath? I was gonna buy another one anyways, but should I hold off until I see if he will replace this one? He has a reputation for good sheaths, so I was a bit surprised that a simple drill could go through so easy. I think its pretty clear that this was faulty kydex.

Silly, isnt it?

Richard

 

[Ben E Hana]

Richard-"silly,isn't it?

"

If you are referring to your analogy, I couldn't agree more.

troy

[This message has been edited by Ben E Hana (edited 03-25-2000).]