Buck: Hits, Misses, and where to go from here

J

Joe Talmadge

Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
4,842
CJ Buck wrote:

>Our internal focus has been knife performance for the last year. Fruits of that
>focus are now hitting the marketplace and aspects today will hit the first of
>next year. This is a public forum and I do need to keep some cards close to the
>vest but I will assure you that your comments are being listened to.

Well, since that's the case, I thought I'd go over what I feel are the hits and misses, and where I'd love to see Buck go.

I've felt Buck has been moving in the right direction, but with varying success. Here are some opinions on ...

Crosslock: Custom collaborations are a must, and Buck chose two great makers in Helton and Carson. I think this knife in theory was just plain awesome, and so are the custom versions, but the Buck missed a bit for me. Why? Terrible blade-to-handle ratio (MONSTEROUS handle!), most I've picked up just don't feel rock solid, and though the blades are plenty functional, someone there needs to be paying at least a *little* attention to aesthetics. I don't know how this sells for Buck, but I felt -- and still feel -- a really tightly designed well-done Crosslock with better steel, better designed-blades, better handle, and overall better production values could be a monster hit.

Nighthawk: Getting into the tactical craze was important. And the Nighthawk had some really nice things about it. The handle is "love it or hate it" for most people -- I really like it. Blade shape seemed plenty functional. But as delivered, the original Nighthawks suffered from thick, bad-performing edges. I personally tested and re-sharpened a buddy's, and can attest performance stunk and resharpening was a nightmare. I haven't tried the Nighthawk with the new Edge2000, but if the edge geometry is correct this would overcome the Nighthawk's greatest weakness. An upgrade in steel wouldn't hurt from a PR point of view, but my real concern was edge performance.

Master Series: BG-42 blades and high production values on Buck's tried-and-true classics like the 110 and Vanguard. Priced a little high to sell in big volume I'd imagine, but these were nice knives.

Carson U-2: Back to custom collaborations (a good thing). Better executed this time.

Odyssey/Lightning: Well, you've heard my take on these knives. I've heard from users that they're perfectly fine knives, but they boldly state to the market: ME TOO! And maybe that's a reasonable step for Buck right now. But it's just a few more $$ for classics like the Delica and market heavyweights like the Ascent. It's good that Buck has an offering in this area, now let's move on ...

First of all, I don't have a problem with the vast majority of the knives being fine blanked for the general public, if that's what it takes to keep Buck chugging. But I'd like to see a separate performance line, with kick-butt characteristics.

Here's what I think it takes to design a me-too folder today:

- ATS-34 blade, possibly tactical-looking
- g-10 + liner lock, or zytel + lockback
- blade hole or stud
- Optional: custom collaboration
- Tactical-looking
- Sometimes but not always, a bit too much emphasis on aesthetics over performance & ergonomics.

To beat that, we want:

- Something better-performing than ATS-34 (e.g., 420V or BG-42 in stainless, M-2 or D-2 or A-2 etc. in tool steel), or something that's ATS-34ish in performance but isn't ATS-34 (e.g., VG-10).
- Lock other than lockback or liner lock
- Custom collaboration
- Aesthetics are important, but so is performance!!!
- Market wide open for fine gent's knives!


Fixed-blade wise, Buck is fine with the Nighthawk and the Carson knives, in the area of sharpened prybars. A performance fixed-blade in the spirit of the Vanguard is much-needed. I'd say look at the design strengths of the Vanguard, A.G. Russell Deerhunter (and its sheath!), Spyderco Moran, etc. Then update the steel, production values, aesthetics, and put a performance grind on it.

Anyway, I feel based on the above pattern, Buck has a firm handle on where to go. Custom collaborations (Carson), performance edges (Edge 2000), tacticals (Nighthawk), lightweight one-handed folders (Lightning), experimenting with different materials (BG-42, etc.). Not everything has been executed to perfection yet, but we're on the right track. I look foward to what Buck has in store!


Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 26 July 1999).]
 
Joe is, as usual, very perceptive in his synopsis. I would like to add that Buck already has a couple of knives that are in the general area of the Moran etc, namely the Mentor and the Big Sky. I have posted a couple of times about the merits of the Mentor design, but no-one seems to be interested. Strange, as this knife has many of the same pluses going for it as the Moran; a fine sweeping belly, good point and ergonomics, lightweight. With just a couple of changes, this could be a real hit. I'd make it in a premium steel(VG10, CPM440v or BG42) and shave abit off the end of the handle, make a nice pouch sheath (and/or kydex alternative) and zap, a great performer/collectable.
The Big Sky is already a great knife as it stands, it would only be improved by making it in one of the steels above with slight handle reshaping and a pouch sheath. OK, I admit it , I love pouch sheaths and DON'T care for the button/snap strap retainer. But anyway, these two knives really are already almost where they need to be, a few tweaks and some good promotion could be just the ticket to pump some excitement into people's perception of Buck. Sorry for the rant, just had to put some equal time in for a couple of my favorite production knives.

[This message has been edited by Brian Lavin (edited 27 July 1999).]
 
A performance fixed-blade in the spirit of the Vanguard is much-needed. I'd say look at the design strengths of the Vanguard, A.G. Russell Deerhunter (and its sheath!), Spyderco Moran, etc. Then update the steel, production values, aesthetics, and put a performance grind on it.
Click to expand...

I would have to agree, but point out that the Vanguard in its current incarnation is the best fixed blade that I have picked up, design-wise, for all the chores I need it for (skinning, camping, chopping, pounding tent stakes, etc.). Adding a premium steel, a la the Master Series Vanguard that I found out about too late, is all it needs/needed.


------------------
Work hard, play hard, live long.
Outlaw_Dogboy

 
It can probably use some aesthetic styling touch-ups, which of course should be done in a way that doesn't impair performance at all.

Outlaw, what's the sheath like? Easy to move from your pack to your belt without having to take your belt off? Does it swing easily out of the way when you sit? If it gets wet with or without the knife in it, how will it fare? Is it multi-carry? Don't know what the sheath looks like, but bet there's room for improvement here!
 
I guess I came across a little disagreeable there, which I didn't mean to.
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There is much room for improvement in the sheath, although the leather one that I have now has served well, rain or shine. I would prefer a kydex one like I have for my Moran, and will probably go that route soon. Aesthetic improvements? Yeah, there probably could be, but me of little imagination can not think of any. I did not mean to say that you were wrong,
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but merely to encourage Buck that they have a good design there, IMHO.

------------------
Work hard, play hard, live long.
Outlaw_Dogboy

 
O_D: Believe me, no offense taken! I just thought you were being a little short-sighted in thinking a change of steel was all that was needed. But I do agree the Vanguard is an excellent start towards a performance fixed blade.

Joe
 
I guess what I was really saying was that, in my limited imagination (again
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), just a better steel would be sufficient to satisfy me. A handle of something other than rubber (kraton? Whatever it is now) would be another improvement I could enjoy (esp G-10), and a kydex sheath would round out the package. The shape of the Vanguard knife itself I would not change at all, length, width, or breadth... so to speak
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.

Now, we all know that that the MAster Series did this to a great extent, and had I found out about the Master Series early enough, I would not even be having this discussion. Heck, who am I kidding? I'd still be wishing for something different, because I just couldn't bring myself to beat that MAster around like I do my standard Vanguard. So, bottom line is, I have mixed feelings. If Buck were to go the whole 9 yards like they did with the Master Series, I would no more be able to afford it than I can the Master Vanguard (ooh, that hurts every time I think about one out there just waiting for me
frown.gif
) But, if they were to go somewhere in between, oh boy, now you're talking something I should be able to afford.

So, there is my $0.02 worth, wrapped up in a $2.00 package
wink.gif
.

------------------
Work hard, play hard, live long.
Outlaw_Dogboy



[This message has been edited by Outlaw_Dogboy (edited 27 July 1999).]
 
I feel the 110 needs improvement. Lighten the frame and use better (bg42) blade steel. The takedown titanium model was cutting edge in it's time, but the clip was horrendous. Maybe frame and bolsters of ss or titanium with a carbonfiber or better yet pearl insert or even better handle inserts attached with screws so the owner could replace them if desired. Mainly, lighten and modernize the frame with maybe smaller bolsters, especially at the bottom.

[This message has been edited by ThomM (edited 01 August 1999).]
 
Thom --

I haven't used a 110 in a long time. Is the action still a little jerky? If Buck is still using pins, perhaps more modern construction -- e.g., a bushing and brass spacers -- might bring the action up to date.

The titanium 110s looked cool, but I find finger-grooved handles get uncomfortable quickly when put to real work. A handle with a single index-finger groove added would make the handle both look and feel nicer.


Joe
 
Joe, no the 110 is not jerky, and it does have a bushing. I agree about the finger grooves on the takedown titanium. My major complaint is the frame, and thus the knife, is just too heavy.
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Joe,

I agree with your hits and misses list entirely. I also agree that Buck should consider a higher end line.

Regards,

Tom Carey
 
We have a new products review meeting tomorrow and this thread will be discussed. Any additional thoughts please feel free to keep firing.

------------------
CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003


 
My first knife was a Buck 110 with wood scales on the handle. Ever since, I`ve always associated Buck with wood handles. I`d love to see Buck continue to make high tech folders like the Odyssey, but instead of G-10 or Carbon Fiber, use a stablized wood for the handle. Here`s my dream Buck:

The Odyssey pattern, with a PLAIN blade of ATS-34 or 440v with a desert ironwood handle. (I figure I`d be willing to pay around $130 or so.)

I`d love to see more stablized wood handles out there. How much G-10 and Micarta can you own? It`s all so tactical. Wood can give the most tactical looking knife a comfy "grandpa" type of look.
 
Just my 2 cents:

If you make the higher end line, I will buy more Buck knives. I love your traditional looking knives, but always wished there were higher quality steels available in all your models. Your Master Series was great.
 
Speaking of a performance line, I want to emphasize the Crosslock again. I feel that it's almost an indictable offense that Buck doesn't have a high-quality Crosslock that competes in the Genesis/Pinnacle/etc. price range (say, ~$125-$150 retail).

The model would have to be Carson's or Helton's custom versions of this knife. Of course, those are $600+ knives, so we don't expect nearly the same quality. But both guys have fixed the blade-to-handle ratio, both have greatly improved the aesthetics on both the blades and the handle, and stiffer handle materials give a much more solid feel.

I LOVE the idea of this knife. Do it as a drop-point or straight-clip-point plain blade plus a serrated sheeps foot blade. Or the drop point plain blade plus a thinner higher-performance wharncliffe plain blade. If the handle was reasonably sized and the entire package felt secure, it'd be a bit hit, at least with me. Come out with it in ATS-34, and I won't even complain! 'course, later they can do a Master Series version in BG-42 for more $$.

Or do it as a smaller gent's pocketknife with 2.9" thinner blades, so the whole package is smaller, and with nice wood handles. Almost any higher-end and tightly-designed Crosslock idea gets me excited.

Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 03 August 1999).]
 
Amen on the upgrade idea of the cross lock. Not to mention an up grade on the fixed blade line, and I'm not talking about that goofy Nighthawk. Just a "wannabe" knife.
I was thinking of something along the line of a Buckcote Personal or some such. Having the Special is fine but for a lot of things it's too big. This last point hasn't been lost on a lot of hunters and trappers. Besides Buck NEEDS to start doing some marketing of their product line besides the "death-ray" and "oddthing".
 
I stopped carrying Bucks because the blades were too short for the handles (the handle-blade ratio thing). I really think you could work at putting the max length blade in any given handle. Come to think of it, that must be more important to me than an upgrade in steel, because I haven't bought a Masters (or any other Buck for a long time), and I do like that steel.
 
...another model that should see wider distribution is the Chuck Buck Signature #400 in BG42 and stag. The only drawback from my knothole is the fingerguard. Taper it and relieve it! As is it is too thick and as such is not ergonomic for the index finger....it is a tad uncomfortable. But the knife could be right in there with the Vanguard.

-=[Bob]=-
 
I'd like to see the Intrepid series expanded.
Same basic design characteristics with different blade shapes: flat ground clip and tanto with 7-8" blade length. I am a big fan of the full length/width tang. Different steel choices for these models may also be another consideration. Maybe even larger versions.
Ten
 
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