Buck knives steel progression?

Joe58

Joe58

Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Messages
1,969
Hey guys -

Due to my weak Google Fu returning mixed results, I figured I'd ask the experts here.

I'm mostly interested in the blade steel used in the 300 and 700 series, from the beginning of the Schrade and Camillus contracts forward.

I can find the years easy enough, but not so much the blade steel used by the different makers.

And I believe at some point/year, Buck went with 420HC for everything. And it seems there was 425M in there, 440 families, etc., etc. Didn't see where carbon steel was ever used in Buck knives.

This is just more for my own curiosity than anything else because in practicality, in my normal pretty mundane daily knife needs, they all work fine. I just may notice one knife may need a touch up more often than another for instance, but that's not a big deal as I enjoy sharpening them anyway. :) I've found myself kinda drifting away perhaps from the perceived need for "super steels". I do prefer stainless though. I guess I should mention that I do like the upper end steels, but it may be more of a cool factor, than actual need. Heavy/hard knife users likely find the current top end blade steels better suited to their needs. But I'm getting myself off topic. Lol.

So a listing of the different blades steels used over the years for the two model runs mentioned, would be much appreciated.

Thank you! Joe
 
What kind of steel? ..... why it's all "Buck Quality Steel" of course!

I'm sure more serious answers to this oft discussed subject will be along shortly...
Here is the first appearance of the 301 Stockman (Schrade) in the 1966 catalog.

Buck%20301%201966%20Catalog_zps1t9eob1z.jpg
 
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The 703 Colt came out in Dec. 1979 and it most likely has 440A for it's blade steel. All the rest 700's came out in 81 and those probably have 425M steel. DM
 
Joe and all,

For 300 models, the first Buck models were contracted by Schrade, using Schrade metal for at least four years. Then Buck switched contractors and Camillus made the 300s. Every part including blades. Both companies would ship knives in bulk to Buck who then boxed them in individual Buck boxes. They used whatever they used, it was not BOS heat treated. Just consider it Schrade or Camillus blade metal. Beginning in late 85, Buck used 425m in the four models they took over making in the Buck factory and the other Buck 300s were still Camillus made with Camillus steel. BOS heat treating started on the four Buck made 300 models when he started heat treating the other Buck models blades. Over a period of time 300 models were phased out by Buck, aka Camillus contract, and only the four Buck made models remaining and still do today. Then a couple of other models were tried by Buck (310,312 and 314) and discontinued. SMKWs contracted with Buck and Camillus to make some special knives, such as the folding fish knife design called the 'California Toothpick",congress model, big and little barlow, etc. These will not have model numbers or date marks stamped on the blades. They will have Camillus steel. They were only sold thru/by Smokey Mountain Knife Works.

To further confuse things the imported 300 series are on their own, their construction and materials are designed by Buck but made by the contractor. The steel is generally thought of as 420J and to my knowledge the blades are not heat treated in the Buck factory.

This contracting stuff was very common, Camillus made dozens of other companies knives. All this twisting and turning in the factory/contract world can lead to some stuff people just don't realize. Such as the 307 Stockman was never made by Buck, only by Camillus contract and the blade steel was never BOS heat treated. No matter there are folks who swear the 307 is a darn good knife and I agree.

This was as simple as I could explain it. As you see it is not a straight forward metal history. You like the old knives for what they were and are; no matter who actually made them. Bucks warranty still stands and back in time your knife was repaired or replaced. Today old 300s are not repaired you will get a replacement modern knife. 300Bucks
 
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Thanks for all the reply's and the link. Most helpful. Appears there is really no way to get a definitive answer since the early made knives varied so much from maker to maker. They're good knives though IMHO, and I guess that's the important part.

Appreciated!
 
This history of other manufactures involved in the early 300 series knives is so interesting. My fathers little 305 was the most identifiable knife I knew growing up. On that one, it had a long straight nail nick and I identified that as uniquely BUCK. Later I found they were making them with a half moon nail nick. That confused me. I thought they just changed it, but now I'm wondering if that straight nail nick is unique to Schrade or Camillus or both and if BUCK ever did this too?
 
BuckShack said:
..... but now I'm wondering if that straight nail nick is unique to Schrade or Camillus or both and if BUCK ever did this too?
Click to expand...

Yes, the long nail nick (French nick) was specific to Schrade and Camillus contract knives. It was never used on knives mfg by Buck themselves.
 
BuckShack said:
This history of other manufactures involved in the early 300 series knives is so interesting. My fathers little 305 was the most identifiable knife I knew growing up. On that one, it had a long straight nail nick and I identified that as uniquely BUCK. Later I found they were making them with a half moon nail nick. That confused me. I thought they just changed it, but now I'm wondering if that straight nail nick is unique to Schrade or Camillus or both and if BUCK ever did this too?
Click to expand...

Myself, I like the long pull on the older 300 series knives. Even on the customs I've ordered (not from Buck) I always get the long pull. Just looks cool to me. And I too recall my fathers Buck always having that long pull.
 
Joe58 said:
Myself, I like the long pull on the older 300 series knives. Even on the customs I've ordered (not from Buck) I always get the long pull. Just looks cool to me. And I too recall my fathers Buck always having that long pull.
Click to expand...

I agree, I like that look better too. :)
 
Schrade and Camillus used 440A until late 1990's or early 2000's then they used 420HC. So the Buck knives would have been 440A, I hope this helps you.
 
ibtc said:
Schrade and Camillus used 440A until late 1990's or early 2000's then they used 420HC. So the Buck knives would have been 440A, I hope this helps you.
Click to expand...

That's leads me to wonder if Buck specified the qualities of the steel, such as heat treat, or just accepted whatever which either company had on hand as is. I'm guessing as it was, cause I would doubt they'd want to have separate steel contracts for different rebranding.

**As an aside - wouldn't you love to have that 1966 model up there. I'd even pay retail. Lol.
 
The six knives on the right were all made by Schrade.
I can never keep my son away from the Camillus 301s.. Ken
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I love my 1966 Buck 301. I just love to play with it, from time to time.
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Korngold - sorry if it's a dumb question, but how can you tell those are Schrades? Is it because the tang stamp configuration, where the 301 is on the reserve, and the front just says Buck Made In USA?

If that's the case, I noticed the 7th from the right is also stamped like that.

I really like the one on the far right with the threaded bolsters. Has to be early production right? I've never even seen one come up for sale, let alone that cherry.

Thanks! Joe
 
Since Ken is likely still asleep in AU I will try to answer Joe.

The quick way to see Schrade or Camillus
1. Schrade has NO visible bolster/blade pins
2. Camillus has NO swedge grind above the nail nics. But pin is usually visible.

You first look for the swedge extending down the top of the main blade above the nail nic. In both Schrade and early Camillus models you have long nics/pulls In Schrades there is a swedge grind on top of blade above nail nic or pulls. Then breath on the bolster to confirm the lack of the pin coming thru the bolster for the Schrade. Breath a hot enough breath and you should see the Camillus pin.
I have a Cami 301 someone put bolster grooves on, just like the first model Schrade so watch for fakes. You will eventually be able to quickly see the difference in the scale pins and even, at a glance, be able to see that the Schrade nail nic grooves are not as deep and dark as Camillus ones. And when you get really good, the "S" shape of the knife alone will tell you its a Schrade

300
 
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I no doubt will not help the conversation one bit but, this is a Sears knife made by Camillus that I bought new in 1995. In the pic is its original box, paper work and receipt so dated. I bought it to replace a Buck Cadet I thought I'd lost. The similarities between the two is striking.

DSC02535_zpswhlqxctv.jpg
 
Thanks 300! Great explanation. I'm a little dense on "S shape" tho'.? I did find a Schrade in my small group though now that I know what to look for. Leroy Remer was going thru some of that with me on the phone but he was laying out facts and indicators quicker than I could compute over the phone. :) Guys a Buck encyclopedia. He needs to write a book. Be really useful.

DDD - you have a pic of the other side? Like to see what it looks like on the presentation side. Those brass bolsters too?

Boy, we drifted off topic in this thread didn't we? I'll bet the OP is not happy! Oh, right. That was me.....lol :)

Thanks guy!! Joe
 
In 1966 Schrade was using 1095 steel, on its' 4" knife (The 8OT)
The Schrade / Buck 301 knifes had stainless blades, maybe Schrade used 440A.
Camillus was using 420HC and 440A steel for its' blades.
I think most of the steel used by Schrade, Camillus and Buck knife makers, was 400 type stainless steel. Ken

300 Bucks, is the 1966 Buck a hard knife to find in the USA.
The one I have, was selling on eBay for $15, and the seller would not ship to Australia.
The seller said "it would cost more then the knife was worth to post to Australia."
I said " I would pay for any shipping cost - no matter what it was".

The price slowly moved up, until it stopped at $35.
However, seconds before the auction ended, the bidding when over $100.
I have never seen another one NIB, like that one.
My other six Schrade 301s, came from another seller that had about 10 of them... Ken
 
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Ken.
In all honesty, I have not bought one of those or used the E auction site in over a year. I hear about people getting one now in then so I think there is a US advantage. Maybe one of the other 300 interested folks will give a statement. The more we have learned to post good photos, the more we have ID'ed them and praised their construction, or not, the more people have taken an interest in getting one. And since there are only so many I bet they are harder to come by than when I got serious at the end of the 1980's.
300
 
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