Buck Marksman - My definition of strong

sch3ric said:
Bradytx what do you think should I do a hard use test?
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A hard use test of the Marksman would be nice, but I wouldn't think you would want to do anything super crazy to a nice knife. Now if money isn't an option I'd say go for it. A gentlemen on Youtube, I believe from Russia does excellent hard use tests, I'd model the test on his.
 
bradytx said:
A review I did on the Marksman can be found here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1204645-Buck-Marksman-review
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An excellent review, I'd read it before but never stated thank you for it, so thank you :thumbup: especially for the detailed photos :thumbup:

Make it a button-lock or back-lock, or give it another pocket-clip, and I'd be all over it as i would a vantage with such alterations. But this designs just isn't my cup of tea. More for others! Again, thank you for the detailed review.
 
Chiral,
My, aren't we testy today, lol. Sorry if you were offended, I just call it like I see it.
You have a brand of knife that you own and handle, first hand information, with a feature that endears you to it. Then another brand of knife with the same feature that you do not own is a safety issue. The same feature is safe for you to use but a safety issue for others. Do what I say, not as I do. That is a double standard. Reading about a feature on a product and then saying that all of that product has safety issues, when you don't own it or have never handled it, is third hand information. First hand info is when you witness, first hand in front of you. Videos, charts, tables, etc are second hand info. Third hand info is making facts out of others opinions or experiences. If you don't trust others to handle something safely that you can, then how can you make realistic conclusions from their statements about the overall safety of a product? You are showing bias in two ways. You are biased in thinking other people can not safely handle the same type of products that you do, the free swinging blade. You are also obviously biased toward Benchmade products. Why do I like the Marksman better than the aforementioned Benchmade? I just do, I don't need a detailed breakdown to determine what I like. I actually own more Benchmade folders than I do Buck. Most of my Benchmades I like better than my Marksman. I do have more Buck fixed blades than I do Benchmade, mainly because overall they are a better deal for the $ for my uses. As far as all the other stuff you mentioned that I did not, that is all you. I can agree to disagree, no problem with that.
Thanks for the entertainment and discourse, I have been laid up lately and really bored.
 
SOLEIL said:
Sorry if you were offended, I just call it like I see it.
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Apology accepted. You should check your vision before making unsubstantiated statements, for instance:

SOLEIL said:
You have a brand of knife that you own and handle ... with a feature that endears you to it. Then another brand of knife with the same feature that you do not own is a safety issue.
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Nowhere do I make such a statement about brands. What does the brand have to do with anything?? A free-swinging blade is a safety concern with ANY knife from ANY maker unless mitigated by proper lock-up and detent.
I have not had this problem with axis-lock knives, but others have. The Benchmade 745 Mini-Dejavoo, a liner-lock, was known for its poor detent, and I have first-hand knowledge, having fixed the problem on the one featured in the review i linked above.
MANY brands implemented IKBS before Buck, do you read me criticizing those free-swinging blades just becuase they use IKBS? My comment was in regard to a direct comparison of the Buck to a Grip, that the Grip features a free-swinging blade without IKBS, so where is the advantage? My button-lock de-assisted Gerber Propel swings free on just washers, as does my CS Recon 1. I do not criticize a free-swinging blade on any of these because... Why?

There is very little out there on the Marksman but among the very FIRST reviews (as linked) is comment upon the poor detent and also the lock as a function of the design. That is second-hand info as anyone can follow the link to the review by the user. This has nothing to do with the brand, it could be a Benchmade, the problems would still be present. The weak lock-bar rests upon a small bit of the tang which need only lift it slightly to pass, and the low friction lets the blade open easily. That is a safety hazard, pure and simple, regardless of brand.

Furthermore, this back-lock design also rests quite shallow in the tang cut-out when the blade is open, suffers the same weakness as ANY backlock only more so as the spring pressure keeping the bar in place must be lower to allow the user to more easily disengage the lock via lifting it directly rather than levering it open across a fulcrum. That is basic physics, also objective.

SOLEIL said:
Reading about a feature on a product and then saying that all of that product has safety issues, when you don't own it or have never handled it, is third hand information. First hand info is when you witness, first hand in front of you. Videos, charts, tables, etc are second hand info. Third hand info is making facts out of others opinions or experiences.
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Is it not obvious that you just conflated 2nd & 3rd? "Charts & tables" are "making facts out of others ... experiences".

I presented a direct experience of another user that you can watch yourself, so Second-Hand to you.
I also comment upon WHY based on physics, so again second-hand information.
I can predict how well a knife cuts by seeing its geometry, i don't need to cut with it personally unless I mean to prove what physics and the experience of others already suggests. This is all second-hand.
But if you cite me rather than my sources, then that would be "third-hand".

SOLEIL said:
You are biased in thinking other people can not safely handle the same type of products that you do, the free swinging blade.
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:confused: It isn't the free-swinging blade that is at issue, it is the detent / lock, and it would be as unsafe for me as anyone else. What bias?

SOLEIL said:
You are also obviously biased toward Benchmade products.
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Again, evidence? See above.

Regarding Benchmade's axis-lock, it is demonstrably true that the omega-springs (providing the detent-force and move the lock-bar in place) are far more prone to break than the liner-springs or back-springs or coil-springs found in many other designs. I have experienced this personally. Some users therefore refuse to purchase such Benchmades until they implement stronger omega-springs, regardless of how strong/safe/user-friendly the design. This is NOT an innate bias toward other brands or against BM, it is a demand for greater durability. Again, remake the Marksman with a better lock-design, changing nothing else, and i might be interested. It is not bias against one brand in favor of another, the suggestion is unsubstantiated.

SOLEIL said:
Why do I like the Marksman better than the aforementioned Benchmade? I just do... Most of my Benchmades I like better than my Marksman.
Thanks for the entertainment and discourse, I have been laid up lately and really bored.
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:thumbup:
For what it's worth, I don't particularly like the Grip, handled and rejected, too many other knives out there which feel better in hand for me.

I hope you feel better in the near future.
 
I stopped carrying mine, as it's a dangerous lock design. If the lock falls out of adjustment, the blade will not lock, and because of the lock's closed spring pressure in additon to user applied opening force, the blade will bounce back with enough force to cut the user's fingers.
 
dano said:
I stopped carrying mine, as it's a dangerous lock design. If the lock falls out of adjustment, the blade will not lock, and because of the lock's closed spring pressure in additon to user applied opening force, the blade will bounce back with enough force to cut the user's fingers.
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The Marksman has as spring? I can't see one on mine.

As far as an out of adjustment lock causing a failure can't that be said of any lock?

How do you get your fingers in the way of the blade on a flipper while flipping it open?
 
dano said:
I stopped carrying mine, as it's a dangerous lock design. If the lock falls out of adjustment, the blade will not lock, and because of the lock's closed spring pressure in additon to user applied opening force, the blade will bounce back with enough force to cut the user's fingers.
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I haven't experienced these issues.
 
I sold mine.
It had alot of cool factor, but once that wore off. I did not care for the way the thumbhole worked with no detent. I did not feel safe with hard push cuts. Overall I liked it for a few weeks and then decided it was not at all practical for an EDC. Still the only buck I would carry besides a 110.
I have seen lock issues from light impact on another and the guy got cut a few times from awkward design.
The steel was the bomb though.
If you master the lock it is fun but maybe not for you. I will more than likely get another some day just to have for fun.
 
Badhammer said:
The Marksman has as spring? I can't see one on mine.
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Look on the spine :p

This back-lock design implements a leaf-spring across the back of the knife, held in place by the rearward screws, with the forward portion shaped to act as the lock-mechanism in conjunction with a cut-out in the tang. Another little 'nib' on the tang is held down by the very end of the spring, acting as the detent. When you push the blade open, you overcome this detent by the 'nib' pushing the spring up. To disengage the lock, you have to directly lift up this forward portion of the spring to release the tang.

Other back-lock designs rely on a back-spacer lever pinned to the scales, the pin acting as a fulcrum, with a rearward spring. The forward portion of the back-spacer has a tongue/'nib' that fits into specially cut-out sections of the blade-tang, and the rearward portion is acted upon by the back-spring to force that 'nib' into those cut-outs to act as detent or lock-mechanism. To disengage a traditional back-lock, the user depresses the rear-end of the lever against the spring, lifting the 'nib' out of the tang-hollow. To overcome the detent, the user rotates the blade and its sloped shape lifts the 'nib' against the spring pressure providing detent.

Prettymuch all 'automatic' locks rely on springs for both detent and lock, including friction-folders. A manual lock as featured on Opinels does not.
 
RevDevil said:
2 words: Paul Bos
If you haven't heard much about him, here is a link (look 2/3 of the way down the page)
http://www.buckknives.com/about/the-people-behind-buck/
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Yeah, but I read folks complaining about the steel in Buck knives (who now HT in house using Bos' protocol) as much as in Benchmade (who just uses their own "proprietary" protocol, same as Busse has their own, etc.etc.).
Lots of smaller makers now use Peters HT, here's hoping they'll be earning awards as well...

I just haven't seen conclusive evidence that Buck's 154CM is better than Benchmade's, Bos or no Bos *shrug*
 
BellaBlades said:
I sold mine.
It had alot of cool factor, but once that wore off. I did not care for the way the thumbhole worked with no detent. I did not feel safe with hard push cuts. Overall I liked it for a few weeks and then decided it was not at all practical for an EDC. Still the only buck I would carry besides a 110.
I have seen lock issues from light impact on another and the guy got cut a few times from awkward design.
The steel was the bomb though.
If you master the lock it is fun but maybe not for you. I will more than likely get another some day just to have for fun.
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I'd like to hear about the lock issues, and the injury. I feel safer using the Marksman than any frame lock or liner lock.
 
It was fine for me too. He used an axis lock or framelock on his other EDC knives. Just operating one handed he showed me some minor cuts. And once he opened his for me and it did not lock up but bounced back from a weak flip biting his finger.
He shows me he can fail the lock with a spine whack against the palm of his hand. Saw it with my eyes. And I adjusted the lock for him, so that is not the issue. Also from over striking while using it on some small branches.
Im sure it can hold alot of weight. But all locks have a weakness.
This was not all in one day. Over a period of a week or so working on site with him on work break.
It does have the advantage that your thumb stays over the lock when cutting.
I feel it is a great design. Not perfect but darn good.


bradytx said:
I'd like to hear about the lock issues, and the injury. I feel safer using the Marksman than any frame lock or liner lock.
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chiral.grolim said:
Yeah, but I read folks complaining about the steel in Buck knives (who now HT in house using Bos' protocol) as much as in Benchmade (who just uses their own "proprietary" protocol, same as Busse has their own, etc.etc.).
Lots of smaller makers now use Peters HT, here's hoping they'll be earning awards as well...

I just haven't seen conclusive evidence that Buck's 154CM is better than Benchmade's, Bos or no Bos *shrug*
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Heck, I'll throw in another wrench and add that my Vantage has the chippiest S30V I've ever used. :confused:
 
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