Buck to introduce "NEW" knife steels

[Flatlander1963]

we are enjoying working with the new steels. We will be introducing (for Buck) some new steels that are halfway steps between S30V and 420HC...at a price closer towards 420HC so is a good alternative. We have been field testing and have been pretty impressed so far.

As always the Bos heat treat makes a big difference.

CJ posted this on the 154CM Vanguard thread but I thought it warranted its own thread.

So what do you guys think or know about this??
CJ says "New to Buck" OK so ATS-34, 154CM, & CPM-154 are out because Buck uses them already.
CJ says "New to Buck" OK so somebody else is already using these new steels. And, it’s more than one apparently.
CJ says "Halfway between S30V & 420HC" I take this to mean performance and they've been "pretty impressed so far."
CJ says "At a price closer toward 420HC"

So guys, what's out there in use by other makers that's considered a performance steel but also is cost effective?? Also, will Buck venture offshore for the sake of price on this steel? And you know the offshore I'm talking about.

-VG10; fits the performance but a price seems not to fit...pricey?
-Sandvik steels; this one could be it. Good performers and cost effective?
-CPM M4; comes in HC, grindable, comes in large lots...higher performer; is it the price point required?? Interesting possibility here. But rust resistance is probably to low.
-8C13CrMoV high carbon stainless steel with a a relatively low alloy content. Is this it?? It is cheap and it is a good steel for those that can get over the China thing. 8C13CrMoV is basically an upgrade to Sandvik 13C26 according to this http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/blade_materials.html#C_52100

I guess I wish CJ could have just told us what its is they’re coming out with. But it is interesting that something new is happening on the steel front that's good performance and good price.

 

[kyhunt]

Something I seen interesting that I had never seen before. I seen a couple of fixed blade Bucks with D2. Not sure if they are older stock or something new. Seen them on ebay.

 

[postfallsidaho]

Something I seen interesting that I had never seen before. I seen a couple of fixed blade Bucks with D2. Not sure if they are older stock or something new. Seen them on ebay.

Those D2 knives are older maybe 2000 or so. Most should be Buck 118 personals Sweet knives with that steel!

How about CPM D2? S110V?

ZDP189?

I guess we will have to wait and see!

 

[kyhunt]

Yes they were 118 personals with Stag and D2. I dont own anything in D2 and I dont own a 118. Looks like a tempting little knife.

 

[110 Dave]

cheap and it is a good steel for those that can get over the China thing.
.

add Japan...

never happen here..
STEEL SOURCE is one issue that i get Highly concerned with.
the buck 110 has always been 100% USA and stamped with USA..
IF they use a steel that is NOT from the USA then
then a 110 CAN NOT be stamped USA this is United States law that i have provided links to a lot as i get hot on the issue.

IN SHORT: if a 110 can not be stamped USA i will NOT buy it..
and I may as well collect the knock off made by Puma then ..

i had major issues with ATS34 & USA markings ..
was told what Buck used was USA made under license.
i would rather buy a Cuban cigar then non usa marked 110.

so yep i am all for any new steel as long is it is USA sourced..

 

[JD Mandrell]

IF they use a steel that is NOT from the USA then
then a 110 CAN NOT be stamped USA this is United States law that i have provided links to a lot as i get hot on the issue.

Dave, are you sure your not over interpreting that a little?

Even if the blades are made from steel bar stock from another country, the blade itself would still be "made in the USA" wouldn't it?

Many knife makers use handle materials from exotic places outside the USA, but the knives are still considered "made in the USA".

Or is there something special about this in regards to steel????

 

[postfallsidaho]

Yes they were 118 personals with Stag and D2. I dont own anything in D2 and I dont own a 118. Looks like a tempting little knife.

Try one out The D2 118 is great! My Pa loves his, and I really love mine! I picked up the stag as well. Its a great blade for the money! The discontinued 118's in 440C, 425M and 420HC sell for almost what the D2 model does. :thumbup:


I think CPM D2 would be perfect in a fixed blade!

 

[110 Dave]

Dave, are you sure your not over interpreting that a little?
Even if the blades are made from steel bar stock from another country, the blade itself would still be "made in the USA" wouldn't it?
Many knife makers use handle materials from exotic places outside the USA, but the knives are still considered "made in the USA".
Or is there something special about this in regards to steel????

NO i am not, i have read a lot on it
the law of use of usa is NOT same law as marking source of product.
i IMPLORE every one to read : http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm

and note companies are being sued over this and customers are getting money wining these cases!!! it has happened in cal over leather man tools!!
that guy got a bundle! i have been told to drink decaff coffee over this issue ..
this law allows for decorative parts to be described as they are only a decoration.. ivory would also be included as there are no wild elephants in the usa.. jest calling some thing stag does not make it a horn from over seas. canada sorced antler could be a issue but i dont think so..
with a knife it is all about the blade ... every thing else is decoration on it.

here is a link on court cases on that about falsely marking usa:
http://www.sgma.com/press/36/The-Newest-Trend-in-Consumer-Litigation:-"Made-in-the-U.S.A"-Claims
marking the source of product is the laws of the us customs service and ware this false idea of substantial change comes form and is why Harldy MC dont have to be marked as Jap or other ...

it is not worth chest pain or what ever ... i have a head ack already ..
any one that buys some thing with non usa steel and it is stamped USA and they are fine with it ... well they might would vote for mayor marian berry in dc also i guess.. freedom in the usa allows for that.

 

[110 Dave]

Try one out The D2 118 is great! My Pa loves his, and I really love mine! I picked up the stag as well. Its a great blade for the money! The discontinued 118's in 440C, 425M and 420HC sell for almost what the D2 model does. :thumbup:
I think CPM D2 would be perfect in a fixed blade!

yep i agree with post on this !

 

[JD Mandrell]

NO i am not, i have read a lot on it
the law of use of usa is NOT same law as marking source of product. i IMPLORE you to read FULLY : http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm

and note companies are being sued over this and customers are getting money wining these cases!!! it has happened in cal over leather man tools!!
that guy got a bundle! i have been told to drink decaff coffee over this issue .. i enjoy fighting over it.. but takeing wife to florida were it is warm so wont have the computer access to do so ... but i can get ugly over it..
here is a link on court cases on that :
http://www.sgma.com/press/36/The-Newest-Trend-in-Consumer-Litigation:-"Made-in-the-U.S.A"-Claims
marking the source of product is the laws of the us customs service and ware this false idea of substantial change comes form and is why Harldy MC dont have to be marked as Jap or other ...

it is not worth chest pain or what ever ... i have a head ack already ..
any one that buys some thing with non usa steel and it is stamped USA and they are fine with it ... well they would vote mayor marian berry in dc also i guess.. freedom in the usa allows for both..

I was just asking Dave, chill out.

 

[110 Dave]

I was just asking Dave, chill out.

sorry guy... ... i will chill ...
below freezing out side so will get the mail bare footed..
that always gives me goose bumps..
some times i have mistaken simple questions as a challenge that i was wrong which did happen once quite a lot in my life.. i should not transpose that to here.
my apologizes...

 

[JD Mandrell]

No worries, just a note, the California Appeals Court overturned the monetary award in Coglan V. Leatherman, but they did uphold the ruling on the "Made in USA" claim.

Ruling

Also note, that Coglan V. Leatherman dealt directly with Leatherman's actually using parts manufactured outside the USA, not the processing of raw materials, i.e. steel bar stock, that was imported and then processed into blades/parts.

 

[bilrus61]

I got off the phone to a maker of a tools that advertise "made in USA" very prominently and found out their "raw forgings" come from China. I know that the most reloading presses are from castings made in China. I have also read that ALL brass is made in China now and there are no brass makers in the US any longer. Making brass is very "dirty" with the vaporization of the zinc so the EPA has made it where the US brass foundrys had to shut down. Supposedly the reason why reloaders are having issues with reloading "US" brass is that the Chinese are cutting corners and the brass has impurities in it that causes failures. Thats is the reason taget shooter use Norma and Laupa from Europe. So IF I have my information correct the brass bolsters on that 110 is from China and so the steel will be soon also.

 

[110 Dave]

i feel strongly enught on this that if it happens that the 110 can not be marked usa any longer ...
that i might not collect the 110..
and if that happens ..
well i would hate to dump so many on the market at one time..
jennifer you going to say any thing?
\BCCL i like your statement on the ATF store!!! darn good one!

 

[jb4570]

Gordon,

Thanks for the info and the new thread. I'll just add a little link with some good info on steel for those who want to read it.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368828

334dave, & BCCL,

I have to ask....Dave do you have a 110 with an ATS-34 blade (Hitachi steel)? I sure do and it has USA stamped proudly on it. Please correct me if I'm wrong...But, ATS-34 is from over sea's!!! I know the 154CM, & CPM-154 is the USA version of this steel.

top 110 = ATS-34 (click the pic)

Ok, brother Dave, please box up any ATS-34 Buck knives you have and send them to me.
I'd be proud to own them.
1) Because they were made by Buck.
2) Because my fellow BCCI brother & forum pal sent them to me.

jb4570

 

[300Bucks]

Everyone picks what they want to care about, I "want" USA stamped to be made in USA but lets say no USA brass is available and nickle silver is the only bolster material offered because of that I would just have to suck it up and be happy with only NS. I also agree about the wood scales issue, SOME, not all exotic woods are tied into problems with the environment in their native countries. If I know which ones I do not buy them either unless they were 'green' grown and harvested. I am willing to put my dollar where the people are doing the right thing.. The world is getting to be a very complicated place and making a living as a factory owner or worker is getting tough. I want Buck to do their best to live up to my image of them being flag waving, "putting their money where their mouth is" sort of folks that I have supported with my dollars. If that turns impossible then I want them to tell me why and then make the call in honest terms on stamping a knife U.S.A. I believe they understand that "some" of their supporters really appreciate that cause, BUT a whole bunch of other knife buying Americans don't give a hoot they just want 'good enough' at the cheapest price possible. So, to keep their factory open and workers employed what do they do next........?

Dave I am with you brother and maybe even farther out there because of the rainforest issues........I am gonna give both you and Buck credit for wanting to do what is the 'Best' right thing and will wait to vote 'Aye' or 'Nay' with my dollars till all the information is presented.
And I count on you Dave, to present accurate info on such matters, I know it is a heavy burden but you gotta try...........

300Bucks (PS I am not running for any office)

 

[JD Mandrell]

do you have a 110 with an ATS-34 blade (Hitachi steel)? I sure do and it has USA stamped proudly on it.

Me to, I sent in a 110 with a broken blade, with the older Macassar Ebony scales, and paid to have an ATS-34 blade put in.

One slick cutter! :thumbup:

 

[Flatlander1963]

Thanks for the link JB. That is very informative. Gin-1??? Is that U.S. production?

I was sure hoping for some very educated guesses or informed opinions. Thanks to all that took a shot at it.

Dave geezzzz fella you're acting like you just looked up the prom queen's dress and saw something you weren't expecting. And NOT one thought as to where Buck is headed with thier new steel offering. Btw, I'm sure Buck has a warehouse full of brass all made in the 60's

So back to the original discussion. ATS-55 seems like a good candidate as defined by CJ's comment. As does Gin-1/G2 and AUS-8A. However not one of these is a U.S. made steel. These three seem to be Japanese but who says that is a restriction...Buck used a lot of ATS-34 in the past.

Maybe its 440B? Randall uses it but their very old school.
Is it possible that one of Crucible's other tool steels like 10V or 15V are stain resistant enough to be under consideration?

I'm starting to believe that GIN-1 is the best guess as it's cost effective and close to 154CM is performance I believe.

I found this on Gin-1 by Sal, that guy that started all that hole in the blade stuff.

In terms of steel. Gingami 1 (silver paper in Japanese) was a premier steel only 10 years ago. And is still better than (in edge retention):

Surgical steel (the worst - actually a "throw-a-way" steel [304])
420
420J2
425 modified
AUS-6
AUS-8
440A
440B

It yields to;

ATS-34
ATS-55
154CM
AUS-10
VG-10
BG-42
CPM steels

the above is for comparisons of common stainless knife steels.

 

[110 Dave]

i am trying to find it again...this morning while looking for the fed notice
found a site were it said ats34 was also a lisenced trade name
seems like it was the idea of all caps or all lower case ...
like a buck or BUCK ... cant find it again.. was looking for some thing else ya know...
you guys are welcome to your 34 blades!
i was told a long time ago it was licensed to be made
here but that many did not want that known
i have a ATS34 Koji folder ... wicked sharp... with USA on it.
nice knife even tho i dont like that it is ats 34..
but that is not a 110 ..
the 110 to me is not jest a knife it is a knife icon..
i cannot explain fully just why feel as strongly as i do..
if BCCL or jb4570 sent me one to put in my display..
i cant tell you if i would send it back or not or
even if i would put in it in the display or not...
i can say that if i seen one at the flea market for 10$
i most likely would buy it... heck 20 even..
will i pay what most others would for one ...
no...
but i once said i would buy a honda when i got paid in yen...
one day i looked and 100 yen = 90 cents i bought a crv the next year..
it was a good small suv ..
trying to find a list of americian and imported steel now..

 

[CJ Buck]

I love the interest here and buddy Dave fret thyself not because the 110 will never lose the honor of being marked MADE IN USA.

I am reviewing our 2009 catalog and have so much I want to share with you guys but really have to wait until closer to shot show (mid january in orlando). Can't reveal our hand too soon. I will say that for 2009 we are introducing 4 entire families of knives that are made in the usa and one single model that is imported...we debuted the samples to our salesforce last week and got two thumbs up all around!