Bugging OUT: How, When, Where and WHY?

S

SkunkWerX

Joined
Jul 27, 2006
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I started typing this in Tiki's Bug Out bag thread, and noticed I was vearing of of the specific topic, about Bags, Packs and Gear.

How many of you have families? I have a wife and two children.

I ask this because we can't live in a make-believe world where we have to bug-out, and leave our loved ones behind. Or assume their demise, and be "all alone".

If we Bugged Out, I could outpace my family, and leave them in the dust, not because I am in that good of shape, but because A: I've done it (Humping M60s will teach about carrying weight) and B: I can put my mind in that place where nothing matters except that I keep moving. I'd use my Alice gear. OK OK, it may not be as lightweight as that bright red YuppiePack, but it's what I know and trust, just like the hatchet or big Blade that others trust.

Back to family. My son is 17 and in great physical shape. He is smart as whip and and very adaptable. That is a huge plus, like having a good sturdy pack-mule with human brains. My wife an daughter have camped a lot, wouldn't be a total burden , but neither would have the endurance to go, let's say 20 miles a day, that would be a dream. 10 miles per day would even be pushing it, as a group of 4. I don't even have formal Packs set-up for each of them, we would improvise quickly, and carry what we could. None of us have health issues, so we'd just go as far as we could, given the circumstance. That would be Buggin by foot.

I am with Longbow on the truck issue.
My Big plan would involve truck and trailer, lots of gear. Yes yes, quickly quickly... gotta go immediately! All of the camping gear is on shelves, in the garage and would take 5 mins to throw into the truck or trailer.
I would also load our 2 ATVs on the trailer and any gas cans I had.

If time allowed I would siphon the vehicles being left behind.
I don't really understand the 72 hour rule, when I go, it's probably for a long time, if not forever. Coleman stove, propane bottles, bags of charcoal, etc etc. Rifles and ammo, don't leve home without them.

If it's natural disaster, or a huge terrorism problem, Roads will be jammed, truck may not be the way to go. That's gonna suck. Here in the eastern US you can't go more tham a mile or so without crossing a bridge. This means if you are hiking, you have bodies ofwater to centend with. Not creeks, I mean rivers. SO I still wonder about the practicality of Bugging out, when, in the first 2 miles I will have to get a family of 4 across a river!
Bridges at roadways will be clogged, jammed, and points of choas and contention. With a couple of buddies I could shoot my way thru, no sweat, I've assaulted bridges in real life, but, I'd prefer not to go that route.

Hopefully I've primed the brainwaves and now we get to the actual Beginning of all of this: WHEN do you Bug Out? WHY? What forces it?

I have Shelter, 2 fireplaces, enough wood, on my own property,
to heat my house, if not, just my basement, for years on end.
I have a well, so I could rig up a cable system to lift water for drinking.
A creek nearby for additional water, and even collect rain-water off the roof.
OK, so I have Shelter, Fire and Water. We do have our share of deer, so we have meat. I stopped gardening (due to deer damage) , but would quickly start that back up.
My point is this, you are never going to have it better than with all of your wordly goods close by. Shovels, Knives, Axes, hand tools, all that good stuff.

The decision to Bug Out should be a very very serious one. Like ONLY if your life is immediately threatened?

From what I have read, Bugging out is the LAST thing on your list, it's the finality. I'm not talking about someone in Florida who goes North to Aunt Selma's for 3 days because of a hurricane, although that might be a form of bugging out, typically you know in advance, it's a planned exercise.

I see true Wilderness Bugging Out, happening in the following circumstances:
-Radiation spreading.
-Chemical or Bio cloud approaching.
-Biblical sized natural disaster (unpredicted&sudden: volcano, earthquake).
Those kinds of things.

Each one will be a total surprise, there will be mass panic, hysteria and total chaos. Whether you are in your truck, on an ATV, a farm tractor, or by foot, it's gonna be like nothing anyone has ever experienced. EVER.
If you've been in combat, you are among the most prepared, but by no means totally ready. N one is ready to see their home levelled by an earthquake, or burned to the ground. Bodies and human remains strewn about like litter after a concert in the park.
The event that makes us bug-out, is also the thing that Blocks us from escaping. It's a huge Catch-22. Actually it's a huge sh*t sandwich, and we'll all have to take bite.

Roads wil be blocked. Face it. Autos have wrecked, run out of gas, on fire, shot at, etc. Or, if natural disaster, infrastructure is "questionable". Oh, And all those angry mobs, also, blocking roads, denying passage. If you've been in the 3rd world during an engagement you can picture this type of thing. If not, just remember images of Somalia, where the indigenous peoples blocked roads, burned stacks of tires, looted, killed...and then add a dose of anarchy and chaos on top, the people in Somalia were a little organized and being given orders to do the things they were doing. Nothing more unpredictable than small groups of people acting autonomously.

Be rest assured, It will suck and blow, at the same time.

Other than the Biblical stuff mentioned above, I'm planning on staying at home for a bit to assess. Those first 72-hours especially. Let every go run out of gas. Let everyone go crazy, loot, riot, act like animals. and they will , sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.
Let them go nuts, let them fire their pistolas in the air. After about 72 hours they will calm down, they will get tired, hungry, and cold. it's like being hung-over, there will be a lull. Their senses will be dulled and they will be in a state of mental shock. It is at that time I would assess my situation and decide whether to leave. Probably sneak around, Recon a bit, and see what's going on. Are roads even slightly passable? Any emergency Radio channels operating? What are they saying?
We were trained that marching off into the unknown is foolhardy.
Marching off with Intel and a Plan is prudent.

Everyone here, who is by themselves, totally, no girlfriend, no wife, no children, totally autonomous, then by all means, carry your "house" on your back and get the hell outta dodge. See ya on the other side.

Everyone else: You are living in a dreamworld if you have all your crap in a pack, and think you will leave your wife, children, and all behind. Or you think they are gonna hump equipment and supplies and be able to "go the distance".
I think it was Longbow who stated that his wife has a BugOut bag too. That is called being prepared, especially if they are separated during the "Biblical Event". Longbow seems to be a very practical person, so he and his wife also have an agreement where they will try to re-unite, I'd almost be certain of it.
I bring this up, not to single out Longbow, but because, it's a prime example of your loved ones having to be included in your overall strategy.

I am, of course, imagining most of you have 'some' family?

Think of every movie you have ever seen involving refugees. Lines of people walking down the road. Now multiply how bad that looks by 100. That's what it would be like. When the cities empty, your "wilderness" is going to have more people per square mile than you ever imagined possible. Maybe in Wyoming there will be some open spaces, but, don't think you are gonna be out there, alone in a lot of places. Unless you head to the Sonaran Desert or Deep in the Rockies, you are going to run across humans a lot. There will be squabbles of land, over firewood, over obtaining water at the creek!

Again, sorry for the lecture, but everytime I hear 'Bug Out' the whole possible scenario plays over and over in my head. It's gonna be far more difficult and far more chaotic than we can even imgaine. if you already live in a rural area, then why leave? if you live in a city, well, my first bit of advice is Arm yourself, and get educated on hwo the hell to get out, at least to the suburbs.

To sum it up, I can't simply throw a pack on and leave my family behind.
Unless it's of the Biblical nature, I'll probably leave when I run out of fuel, food, ammo, and luck. If indeed it is a Biblical Event, we''ll be living a true nightmare. Chin Up. First rule of survival: Keep a lositive attitude and ALWAYS believe you will get out alive.

Here are the Questions for Everyone:

-What type of event(s) do you see causing you Bug Out?
-How do you handle family?
-Do you leave immediately, or wait a period of time?
-Do you plan to ever return?
-What problems do expect to encounter while Bugging?
-How do you prepare to deal with these problems?

Look at a map of your area. Draw 4 lines from your primary residence extending 20 miles in several directions. Do you enocunter physical obstacles?
Population centers. Major roadways?

Please comment, I'd like to hear everyone's ideas.
 
Ok, it's only fair to share my ideas, first, what would I do in the event of Biblical Event?

If I'm at work, I have the necessary equipment to get home. It's about 7 miles away, largest obstacles are relatively small creeks and streams. Wet feet will only be a problem in winter. might get home at Midnight, assumed if walking the whole way (Due to impassable roadways). But you can bet I will ram everything out of my way possible before ditching my vehicle, and I'll stay clear of major roadways, as much as possible.

I MUST go home, because I have a family waiting. (let's hope).

Once home, secure equipment and set-up a defensive stance. Not with guns pointing out of windows, but, armed, "just in case".
Listen to the radio, talk to neighbors, set up GMRS or FRS channels with people along my road so we can communicate with each other.

Assumption is no elec, no cell phones, no "nuttin".

Oh BTW, if my house is burned the ground, I can set-up out in my workshop.
So, wht do you do when yo get home, to find your house is burned down, and your Bug Out Bag was inside?

That's the beginning of my plan. All the while, securing gear, siphoning fuel, maybe even placing a Huge log across my driveway, depends on the situation.
Tying the dogs outside to a tree so they will be the "perimeter" alarms. I could go on for hours and never even mention actually BUGGING OUT.
 
The biggest threat around here would be forest fires. 25 years ago I had one heading towards this house from the southwest. The winds were strong and the fire was jumping over lakes. It was a full blown crown fire, there was little the fire service could do but battle it with the water bombers.

The fire front looked like a big black storm cloud. At times I could see the fires towering flames from the hill 3 miles away. There was no time for anything but the basic plan. Plan 1). Load up the pick-up with whatever was of value and dear to me. I had the truck loaded full, stereo, TV, microwave (that electronic stuff was expensive in those days), together with my firearms, chainsaw, generator and other valuable gear. I grabbed the cats and placed them in the cab, but the dog would not co-operate so he had to follow me out if it came down to it.

However, with luck the wind began to veer more to the west pushing the fire and associated black ash cloud to the south. It was a complete relief that it had missed. I have never felt so powerless against nature forces. Luckily there are two ways out of here and the road runs east and west.

As for the cause of the fire. Being a windy day a tree came down on a power line 20 miles west of here sparking the fire. The fire traveled 20 miles in less than 3 hours from the time it was spotted.
 
Hey Skunk great thread. I'm sure it will turn to s**t in no time at all. I'm not a huge fan of BOBs, I use a BIB. A Bug in Bag.

Like you I have a wife and two kids and like you my son (14 yo) can do do 15 miles with 30 lbs, sunup to sundown. I can do the same with 45lbs. We do this amount in Boy Scouts so those are good numbers. My wife and daughter (12 1/2 yo) could do 10 miles with 25 and 15 lbs. The point is, where are we going and what are we going to do when we get there. I think I have decent outdoor skills, great motivation, and kit for all of us. But I don't have the fantasy of living in the woods for an extended period of time while I take care of my family. Picture a young Fabio, shirt torn open and standing on a rock with knife in hand, hair blowing back into the wind, a deer hanging in a tree behind me and a dead mountain lion at my feet. Git it? Well that aint me.

I could head to my cousins two hours away, or my inlaws a half hour away. But my "survival scenario" ( I hate that term) is based on "protect in place", that is to ride out trouble at my house. This is why I like the Bug in Bag idea. Yes of course my house could burn down, I'm a retired full time firefighter so I know stuff happens. I also know the value of flexibility and adaptiveness and of having kit readily available in different locations. 72 hour kits are better than nothing but 72 hours goes by pretty darn quickly and then what? What will you eat? Head to the wilds along with a million other "suvivalists" (I also hate that term), I don't think so. Protect in place is what I base my worst case scenario on.

1. Water
2. Shelter
3. Fire
4. Food
5. Health
6. Security

Those are my priorities and they seem to work for ME.

Thanks again Skunk.
 
I'm glad this was brought up. Bug-Out is not really the term I would choose for my family's preparedness. I am striving to build up stores and supplies for me and mine in case of an emergency. I see this as getting my family to safety and the possible need to hunt, forage or scout while my family is sheltered, warm and fed. My little piece of property is our refuge, and I constantly work to keep it in a park-like state. We have campsites, firepits and I am working on storage/cacheing on and close to our property. We live on a peninsula and our only realistic way to leave if we really needed, would be by boat. Something we are in the process of considering, but would be more for enjoyment and would realistically be a large canoe.
With the military installations near us, a nuclear survival scenario is not going to be a consideration. Natural disasters are the real considerations around here and I work daily to further our capacity to take care of ourselves and possibly be of assistance to others. I have six children, two of them adult, my oldest has worked in post-Katrina New Orleans and travels to/from Mexico often, my second is in the USCG and has been a preparedness freak since he was very small. My two youngest are the only ones at home and I want them to be good outdoorsman as they grow up, so with them, just like the rest of the kids, we work on survival skills and general camping.
I cannot see a scenario that would cause me to abandon my family. My experiences in learning survival methods, I'm fairly sure, are not the healthiest or most common. But they have ingrained a very intense feeling of protectiveness and a constant need for learning new methods. I have survived 2 hurricanes as well as lost family to them. I have been displaced in the wilderness and the city. I have seen braggarts and the skilled fall and fools prevail. I have survived much more stupidity and violent experiences than a person has a right to. And............... I have SO much to learn. A new term for what we are trying to learn and discuss is part of it, maybe "Wilderness and Survival Skills".;) Thanks for the interesting topic.:thumbup:
 
2dogs said:
Hey Skunk great thread. I'm sure it will turn to s**t in no time at all. I'm not a huge fan of BOBs, I use a BIB. A Bug in Bag.

Like you I have a wife and two kids and like you my son (14 yo) can do do 15 miles with 30 lbs, sunup to sundown. I can do the same with 45lbs. We do this amount in Boy Scouts so those are good numbers. My wife and daughter (12 1/2 yo) could do 10 miles with 25 and 15 lbs. The point is, where are we going and what are we going to do when we get there. I think I have decent outdoor skills, great motivation, and kit for all of us. But I don't have the fantasy of living in the woods for an extended period of time while I take care of my family. Picture a young Fabio, shirt torn open and standing on a rock with knife in hand, hair blowing back into the wind, a deer hanging in a tree behind me and a dead mountain lion at my feet. Git it? Well that aint me.

I could head to my cousins two hours away, or my inlaws a half hour away. But my "survival scenario" ( I hate that term) is based on "protect in place", that is to ride out trouble at my house. This is why I like the Bug in Bag idea. Yes of course my house could burn down, I'm a retired full time firefighter so I know stuff happens. I also know the value of flexibility and adaptiveness and of having kit readily available in different locations. 72 hour kits are better than nothing but 72 hours goes by pretty darn quickly and then what? What will you eat? Head to the wilds along with a million other "suvivalists" (I also hate that term), I don't think so. Protect in place is what I base my worst case scenario on.

1. Water
2. Shelter
3. Fire
4. Food
5. Health
6. Security

Those are my priorities and they seem to work for ME.

Thanks again Skunk.
Click to expand...

It sure seems to turn into a pissing contest rather than a discussion pretty fast around here, doesn't it?
Awesome new term.

I find it amusing when "survivalist" is used. There are extreme groups (No, not the bombthreat, anti-government type) that I have experienced that spit this word rather than use it as a description of what they are working at.
The idea of having a "Homebase" to use for security and survival is paramount in most military and explorative manuevers. It seems to make sense for those of us that would be in a situation caring and providing for ourselves and loved ones. Kind of like everyday.;)
 
This started out in the thread on bug-out backpacks, but the final Q's fit in here -- so I'll start with those questions. Why do you have a BOB? What's the threat you envision escaping and where will you bug-out to? How fast and how far can you move? How far do you need to move?

I don't have a Bug-Out-Bag; I have a Bug-Out-Truck that has a 96 hour kit in the back. Anywhere I go these days my truck is within a short walk, so it's a good place to store the kit. I'm not a fugitive, not on the run and have no reason to keep a BOB.

For me bugging-out would be about leaving home due to a threatening wildfire. I throw firearms and other irreplacable items in the truck so they aren't in the house if the fire does take out my dwelling. I take the truck and go someplace out of the fire's path. I don't hit the woods to go camping.

More likely than a wildfire getting as far as my home, an earthquake here could do enough damage to stop me from driving home. So I remain in place. My truck's 96 hour kit is what I live on while things are straightened out. Then I drive home.
 
Bugout events; When the 'man' says "you gotta leave". It may be civil insurrection wild fire or a chemical event (RR tracks close). For almost evey other likely problem I would Bug in at home.
Handling the family; when we were all together I aproached this from the rehersal as a hobby aspect. " Lets go camping! See how fast you can get everything packed". Soon evey one knew what to grab and where to pack it into the jeep (the last one ready got the least desireable seat). The same technique worked well for "Lets go Backpacking, and lets go hunting." all of the packs were packed all of the time and left in grab and go mode.
Leave now or wait and see; For things like fire when we could we would pack the jeep then wait and see. When rehearsing "going ..." we would leave immediately.
I always plan for the best, and prepare for the worst. Return may not be possible.

Likely problems: Other people, the routes planned, minimise the possibility as do the vehicles used (prepped 4X4, mountain bike, foot power).
Officials, roving gangs, roadblocks etc; same above.
Bridges out, same as above, the Jeep has a proven fording capability of more than four feet, climbing through gullys and washed out roads (and over other vehicles) can actually be fun in a well equipped vehicle.
Resupply; The supplies are secure at our destination. (Note; you must have a destination or you are not bugging out, you are becomming a refugee and will exist at the whim of the powers in charge.)
Run out of fuel; start out on the mountain bikes with packs.
Blizzard; Lets go winter camping/ cross country skiing.

Enjoy!
 
2dogs, great vision, Fabio standing on the rock! i did chuckle.
But i must admit, at one time i had grandios plans of hiking out, until i realized all the roadblocks, and all the supplies needed to keep a family fed, dry, safe, etc.

Bufford, WildFires, man, since I'm from the right coast, i hadn't thought of that, so good call!

HappyJoe, When the MAN sez you gotta leave...
Another good one! there may be times you'd prefer to stay, but, the MAN sez go. If it's a Chem-Bio attack, most of us won't need the MAN to tell us to, we will already be gone by the time the beaurocrats figure out what the populace should do. They know it will be chaos, and you know they may not say LEAVE, due to all the problems.

All of this points to something important:
Each region, each person has their own set of requirements.
What is the situation, what is the weather, etc.

Again, this is not being critical of being prepared or having a BOB, only a discussion of Why Bug-out, and When, and to Where and what challenges are faced.
 
I didnt see this thread before I posted mine, its basically the same idea.
There are many more factors to consider then you might think,
and all of them relative to your personal current situation. Family, location, etc, you want to be able to make the right decisions because you wont get too many chances to get it right.
A few hours of forethought and preparation will save you much trouble.
 
I think this is an important thread - sharing one's own perceived motivation in being prepared (having a BOB, etc.) impacts what your "Bug-Out" model is (truck vs. just your two feet, 72hrs vs. forever) and knowing what other's models are will help to refine your own. Hopefully I'll have time to answer some of the questions in greater detail in the future, but until then some general thoughts:

Although TEOTWAWKI events are one possible reason to Bug Out, they're not the most likely and not the ones that tend to motivate me. What motivates me is pretty simple and basic. When societies degrade (for whatever reason), one is often put into extremely difficult moral situations. A current case in point is Iraqi society since the spring of 2003. A particular story that comes to mind is an Iraqi man whose son was working for the coalition forces. Insurgents in the neighborhood considered the son to be a collaborator - so they threatened the Iraqi man that they would kill his entire family unless he killed his own son. The Iraqi man took his son behind their house and shot him. I'm not passing judgement on the father, the son, the insurgents or the coalition. I'm just pointing out that when blood flows on the streets, it is very difficult to remain neutral.

Societies don't degrade overnight. Sure, it's possible you'll wake up one morning and be confronted by a radically changed world - a nuclear war starts, an asteroid hits, etc. But usually societies degrade over many months if not years. There won't be a single moment in time when a light bulb comes on and you say to yourself, Uh-oh, I better get the hell out of here. Things will just get slowly but continually more difficult, you'll struggle to get by - and then, one day you may be suddenly confronted with a very difficult moral situation.

So my motivation in being prepared to bug-out is to avoid getting into those difficult moral situations that tend to accompany mass internments, genocides, political revolutions, etc. If it appears that society has begun to degrade, I'll take my chances hunting and trapping in the woods. Maybe I'll starve or freeze to death - but I'll do so in peace.

------

I have a wife but no kids yet - though I may in the future. Women and children are sometimes looked on as a hindrance to bugging out - not that any of us would leave them behind, but we recognize that they may slow us down initially. But once you are at a secure area where you plan to set up shop, I suspect you'll find that they are a great benefit in practical terms. Anyone who camps knows how time consuming just getting the basic chores done without modern appliances and conveniences. People live in tribes for a reason - division of labor is so much more efficient. While one person is cooking, cleaning, making cordage, scraping hides - another person is gathering food, checking traps, fishing or hunting. Life in the wilderness is time consuming. Even mountain men often had Native American squaws to help them with all the chores that are necessary when you don't have electricity or Wal-M@rt.
 
Staying home and riding out an emergency is everyones goal I think, but backing that up by preparing yourself and family (in my case, wife, daughter and new twin granddaughters) for the *possibility* that the family will have to evacuate (twice in '95' because of flooding), means having a plan in place, having the essentials packed and ready to go, money on hand, phones charged, important papers readily available, vehicles gassed, etc. If time allows, loading up our stored medical, food and water would take 5-10 minutes.

On my own, I don't need near the gear that I carry, but having a wife, daughter and two little babies to look after, I need to plan for options and try and deal with all the possibilities that I have no control over. It's true that the evac might just be 5 miles to the nearest motel, or 50 miles north to my wifes Mothers home, but the what if's keep popping into my head and since I can't control anything but my response to situations, I gotta put some flexibility into my planning.
 
Has anyone actually Bugged Out, I have, and there are certain things you need to think about that most people don't.

Room for everything; I don't think about hightailing it to the woods and living off the land, I think about hightailing to my mom's house 300 miles away. I have to make sure that I have room for me, my wife, my son, and my 3 dogs plus all the valuables and neccesities, my answer is a Jeep Wrangler and a 5x8 trailor.

Fuel; I was surprised how quickly gas stations sold out of gas on the major evacuation routes, if you have any time to prepare, as much gas as you can afford and safely store is a good idea.

Evacuation routes; the major roads, I-95, was totally grid locked and you burnt more gas stop and go for hundreds of miles. Secondary or backroads might be a better idea.

These are the things that surprised me the most, I guess the main thing is the situation and your particuler plan. You have to remember there are no original thoughts, there are hundreds if not thousands of people planning to do roughly the same thing you are, which makes certain things scarce and huge crowds everywhere, both potentially very bad. Chris
 
Longbow: "It's true that the evac might just be 5 miles to the nearest motel, or 50 miles north to my wifes Mothers home, but the what if's keep popping into my head and since I can't control anything but my response to situations, I gotta put some flexibility into my planning."
Longbow, you and I are on the same page. I think about all of the different possiblilites and the responses to them. i know I can't think, nor prepare for each and eveyone of them, but I think as part of this thread , just the mere fact that we know we will need to remain flexible and use our intellect more than our gear is important. recognizing 10,000 vehicles are heading toward a 1 lane bridge and deviating your course, is better than just following the herd to a road block, which is what Most will do.

Runningboar, thanks for reinforcing my thought. That is the type of thing I keep looking at, gas stations out of gas, cars blocking the roadway, gridlock.
I live near I-95, I will head in the opposite direction, for sure!

We need to keep all of this in mind as it does have the potential to drastically change or plans, and, perhaps the equipment we may choose for the variety of situations.

It all becomes pretty simple when your life is immediately threatened, but is a bit more complicated process before you've reached that bad place.
It's more about the decisions than the gear.

You may have the shiniest blade and best wilderness skills, but they will do little good if you are stuck on an Interstate with 100,000 other motorists.

I think a large part of the decision making process is to keep from getting into the Immediately Life threatening sitaution.
-Don't head out knowing there are ugly masses waiting at the intersection.
-Don't go to the grocery store where people are fighting each other for the last roll of TP.
-Don't get on the Interstate as that is where 90% of everyone will go to "park" their vehicles.
-etc.

Here on the East Coast, it's easy to see, each time some snowflakes fall. People panic.
They drive like kids at the bumper car track.
They buy all the TP, they buy all the milk, they empty the grocery stores. Just for a snowfall.

Now, multiply that by 1000x should they wake up and find a real disaster!
 
SkunkWerX: said:
Here are the Questions for Everyone:

-What type of event(s) do you see causing you Bug Out?
-How do you handle family?
-Do you leave immediately, or wait a period of time?
-Do you plan to ever return?
-What problems do expect to encounter while Bugging?
-How do you prepare to deal with these problems?

Look at a map of your area. Draw 4 lines from your primary residence extending 20 miles in several directions. Do you enocunter physical obstacles? Population centers. Major roadways?

Please comment, I'd like to hear everyone's ideas.
Click to expand...

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT EXPECT YOU TO READ ALL THIS CRAP I TYPE OUT. it is very skimmable. but for what it's worth, I think it reads faster than it looks. I wouldn't blame you for skipping the whole damn thing tho. I'm a master rambler.

b4 I start, thanks for sharing, Skunk. I think you have a pretty good handle on things, and a great imagination. haha. I guess it truly does depend on your environment. I can't imagine a Somalia-type scene going on anywhere near here. so I apologize, but I just can't think on the scale you seem to be looking for. I can see the total surprise part, but I'm skeptical regarding any mass panic, hysteria, and total chaos going on here. we're some leathery folks. I could always totally rewrite this from a major-city or natural disaster magnet perspective tho. haha. what? you'll pass? oh. okay. hmph.

1). what would 'cause me to bug out? well, I live in Presque Isle, ME. in all likelihood, nothing would make me bug out. there are those 1-in-a-million types of things that have become custom around here to prepare for (which I wont cover since things like an asteroid and the Yellowstone super-volcano could turn into finding a secluded spot in the forest and restarting civilization haha). aside from those things, I suppose there is the actual possibility of a terrorist attack or other war-related attack since there is a closed military base not far from here (Loring Air Force Base). much of it still stands and is used by various companies, and I could see it being reopened by the US in the event of a war if they had a few million dollars lying around, considering its position in the northeast and once impressive credentials. that would make it a potential target, about 30 minutes from where I sit typing this. there is also the Northern Maine Regional Airport here, which is the result of the converted Presque Isle AFB (1941-1961 and used pretty heavily for departures during WW2 and the Korean War). also, from what I understand, the terrorists responsible for 9/11 actually did drive thru here by way of Canada. we know they can get here via ground, let alone air.

here is a map for you to get a view of my position within the northeast US (better map from Map Quest @ end of post).

some potentially important info for Aroostook County, ME:
- 6600+ square miles of land (larger than CT and RI combined)
- 150+ square miles of water
- largest county east of the Mississippi land-wise, 2nd largest behind Saint Louis County, Minnesota including water
- total population = 74,000 (less than 6% of Maine's total population)
- population density = 11 per square mile
- 2 "cities", 54 towns, 11 plantations, 108 unorganized townships and some other stuff
- largest settlements by population = Presque Isle (9500+), Caribou (8000+), Houlton (6500+), Madawaska (4500+), Fort Kent (4000+), Fort Fairfield (3500+), Van Buren (2500+), Limestone (2000+)
- travel times by automobile @ a speed of 50-60mph are Caribou = 10 mins, Houlton = 1 hour, Madawaska = 1 hour 30 mins, Fort Kent = 1 hour 30 mins, Fort Fairfield = 10 mins, Van Buren = 45 mins, Limestone = 30 mins
- bordered by 4 ME counties (Washington/SE, Penobscot/S, Piscataquis/S, Somerset/SW), 4 Quebec counties (Montmagny/W, L'Islet/W, Kamouraska/NW, Temiscouata/N), and 4 New Brunswick counties (Madawaska/NE, Victoria/E, Carleton/E, York/SE)
- longest demilitarized border in the US (possibly the world) tho this is changing since 9/11
- Presque Isle and Caribou have the best medical care, anything beyond their capacity goes downstate to Bangor, ME or farther downstate to Portland, ME, or in the worst cases to Boston, MASS
- 89% forest, 10% cultivated farmland, 1% water
- major crops include potatoes, broccoli, small grains
- fluctuating temperatures in spring, summer, fall (nice during the day becoming very cold @ night, especially deep in the forest), and very cold and windy winters
- solid Community Emergency Response Team and Hazard Mitigation Plan
- for some humor see the Aroostook War AKA the Lumberjacks War AKA the Pork and Beans War AKA the Bloodless War AKA the Northeast Boundary Dispute, and some further reading

anyway, I ought to cut this short. I'm giving folks way too much to read. I would have to take many of those things into consideration if I decided to bug out. I imagine that I would not be separated from my vehicle. that means I could get myself and two family members in this area together and take off downstate towards relatives (unless it was one of those US government cleansing their own types of things in which case I might go north to Quebec). but if left without a vehicle, I would definitely be moving thru very rough forest. if there were a serious attack in my proximity, I would first need to learn if it were nuclear (not likely) or biological (more likely) or run-of-the-mill weapons being used. if nuclear or biological weapons were used, then I would want to move (and trust me, I would want to move) in a westerly direction no matter where I went, since winds usually are moving eastward. then again, if I ended up going north, I'd have to be on alert for enemy forces moving into the US thru the relatively open US/Canada border (I'm not expecting the US military to be able to come close to locking it down). I'm pretty confident I'd come out okay as long as I went south or west. this place is pretty desolate and moving thru it on foot can be difficult for anyone with any level of experience, but I would expect to meet up with others @ some point. and around here, we would look out for eachother for the most part. anyone without the best interests for the group in mind would probly be weeded out within a day or two and lose any power within the group they might have had. the majority of folks would be armed with rifles and shotguns and with a pool of knowledge transcending generations I would expect us to be okay moving together to a town a reasonable distance away.

2). what will I do with family? this is where it gets difficult. I (22 years old, asthma, allergies, out of shape, insomnia going on 6 years/several mental disorders/IBS but recovering from most of it) have to take care of my ma (42 years old, arthritis in hands, tendonitis in shoulders, allergies, non-active lifestyle) and my granma (62 years old, arthritis in hip, elbow, and shoulder, non-active lifestyle). first plan is to get them in a vehicle and take them to safety, most likely downstate. if a vehicle isn't available or travel is impossible then I don't know what else to do but leave them with the CERT folks. worst-case scenario, in which we're truly on our own, I'd have to stay with them as long as they were alive. ditching them wouldn't be an option, no matter how beneficial it may be. not to mention there are a number of acquaintances who might seek me out.

3). do I leave immediately or wait? personally, I'd want to wait as long as possible to get information. I could leave immediately (gathering family and letting them get some things within an hour) if I had to. that is, as long as I have a vehicle. without a vehicle, again, I'm not sure what I'd do. the closest place in ME with a real population is Bangor with 31,000+ (3rd biggest city in ME)... which is about 3 hours south of here... by car... travelling 65-70mph... in fair conditions.

4). do I plan to return? well, I would, but that wouldn't be determined until after we see what happens in the area we are fleeing from. if my scenario actually happened and another country set up shop in the Presque Isle area, or did something as extreme as nuking the AFB and maybe the 2-3 most populous places, or releasing massive amounts of biological weapons, then we probly wouldn't get back there. not even to retrieve valuables (which may or may not retain their value to us in such an event).

5). what problems might I encounter while bugging out? I sort of covered this. any radioactive materials or biological weapons being carried in the wind. possible enemy country invasion via Canada. losing vehicle. blocked transportation routes. very rough forest. getting my ma and granma thru it. and in the winter (and fall and sometimes early spring), blizzards, ice storms, and freezing temperatures and winds. I was actually going to list blizzards/ice storms as a possible bug out situation, but I realized that, like has been mentioned, I'd absolutely be buggin in. however, experiencing any of that during a bug out situation could prove to be fatal for me, let alone my ma and granma. I wouldn't be worried about animals much. possibly encountering a muthr black bear and her cubs, or a moose during porn season, but to be honest I get more worried about being sprayed by a skunk. we also have wolves who make their way to this area sometimes and occasional mountain lion reports (I've only seen 1 mountain lion in all my time living here, and I'd be surprised if it lived in the area). again tho, not worried about them. I worry about humans a lot more. but ppl around here (@ least those with a good chance @ surviving) would likely look out for eachother. another problem I just now realized, is that going N, NW, or NE, you run into a whole lot of French speakers. even here in ME, a part of the US, many ppl as little as 45 mins N of here speak French as their first language. the farther N you go, the more French you get. and my French is pretty rusty. heading to Canada could be tricky.

6). how do I prepare to deal with the problems? to avoid radioactive materials and biological weapons, I have to stay west. to avoid an enemy invasion via Canada, I'd have to move south. if I lost my vehicle, I could very well be screwed. same with blocked transportation routes. for rough forest, I'm pretty confident in the spring and summer. pretty confident in the fall. and very worried in the winter. I believe that I could get thru it. but it could prove to be next-to-impossible with my ma and granma. I'm not sure they'd be up for it. they're also stubborn and might refuse to leave the area in the first place, now that I think about it. haha. a blizzard or ice storm could put me near death. probly not b4 I connected with a group of ppl, but it's on the table. I think I'd be sufficiently protected from cold and wind without any blizzards or ice storms. to deal with animals I'd carry a gun or two or three and a good supply of ammo. now might be a good time to mention I like carrying heavy loads (varying depending on snow depth). I don't know what else to say. it really comes down to ma and granma, and I can't get them to talk to me about this stuff for the life of me.

7). do I encounter physical obstacles? N/S/E/W. any direction I go there is rough forest to contend with. also, there could be problems on foot in spring, summer, and fall 'cause we are almost surrounded by rivers here (note: Presque Isle is from the French phrase for "almost an island" as the Aroostook River and the Presque Isle stream make somewhat of a peninsula of the area if you're on foot). N/NE/E could be trouble in event of nuclear or biological weapons due to wind. N, NE, E, and maybe even NW might not be an option if an enemy force was invading via Canada. and something I might be overlooking could be the fact that the only real populations in ME are significantly south of here. around 3 hours with a vehicle. and there is always the chance of encountering hostile humans or other animals.

8). population centers? if you could call them that, I already mentioned them in my Aroostook info. there are also scattered towns with populations of 1000+ that could end up being an only option if we were on foot. with a vehicle, you have to go 3 hours south to hit Bangor. and 5 hours to hit Portland. around 7 for Boston. not options for my ma and granma on foot.

9). major roadways? there's really only 1 "major" roadway in the area. that is I-95 which is about an hour from here via a practical route for a car (and could be easily blocked off b4 we even sniff I-95). there are other options (and arguably better options if I had something capable of going offroad). but if we were looking @ those other options outside of I-95 I don't even want to imagine the desperation of our situation.

this is the area courtesy of Map Quest. click on a town to center it. zoom in on the Presque Isle area and toggle between the street and aerial view. that might give you an idea of the forest surrounding us, and the sparse populations. if you zoom in close enough you might even see how the rivers gave Presque Isle its name and see the peninsula. snoop around even closer and you might see the former AFB's. if I were you, I wouldn't waste my time 'cause I'm getting tired of myself, but it's on the table. I'm just trying to be thorough.

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akennedy73: said:
Even mountain men often had Native American squaws to help them with all the chores that are necessary when you don't have electricity or Wal-M@rt.
Click to expand...

Kennedy, not sure if you're aware, but "squaw" is a very offensive term. it's especially bad when preceded with "Even mountain men often had"... you might drop it from your vocabulary in respect of native women. today, it's like referring to women as bitches, yet seemingly worse. examples include, "Hey man, I'd like to go out for drinks Saturday but my bitch is being difficult." or the more well-known, "Hey, this is a sausage-fest. Where are the bitches? Let's go find some bitches."
 
Blidnedby Lite,

Wow, since you are upstate Maine, you may already be considered to be at your survival desitination! :) East of the Mississippi, you are in one of the least densely popualted areas.
I would imagine your only true threat is the Cold and Snow, which are probably not as big a deal to everyone, much like those who live in Alaska as you are already prepared for it.
In the event of an East Coast type of disaster, where NY and Boston empty, you will most likely be on the receiving end, of folks heading to the hinterlands.

Have you thought about how your community would react to masses from the city heading to northern Maine to escape a natural or man-made disaster?
 
I would almost rather abandon my car and head for the woods on either side of many highways (at least around eastern canada) then stick around in post apocalyptic gridlock. That or be on the yamaha I hope to get, watching for car doors.
 
Blidnedby Lite; it seems to me that your biggest problems will be the residents from Boston, NY city etc wanting to be where you are. This would be a rough thing to try to prepare for as you would be faced with basicly an invasion of lawsess, moderately prepared to poorly prepared people convinced that they will not be safe untill they displace you.

Its easy to say "lets bug out to the woods". Its the answer than almost everone that has ever camped will come up with. When you arrive and find that the woods are chock full of lawless people (with even more following behind you) what do you do?

Abandonment of the vehicle at some point is almost a given, IMO. Whether from breakdown or lack of fuel, or terminal gridlock; one should have a stage 2transportation plan ready to go when the vehicle quits. (Hint; detailed maps of the areas between you and your destination(s) are essential.

Enjoy!
 
My apologies for using the term and for offending you or anyone else. Consider the term dropped from my vocabulary - I am grateful to you for correcting my ignorance.

In my defense, I did not mean to imply mountain men "had" native american women in any possessive sense of the word - any more that I mean I "own" my wife when I say I have a wife. And, no, I was not aware that my reference to Native American women was an offensive term. But I do now. Again, thanks for the clarification.
 
The only "regular" natural disaster that might hit here is a blizzard, and the house is well insulated and designed to be heated by the fireplace (weeks of wood laid by). In such an instance, travel is very restricted by blowing and drifting, so having a home you can stay in is the way to go.

As for social unrest, we're 30 miles from Cleveland. While that's not good, the best alternative location for us is 390 miles south -- across the Ohio and other rivers, through three large cities or via lots of unfamiliar, windy roads where we are strangers. So even in that case, our first choice if "it" comes on suddenly is to hang on here -- where the ground is familar and the neighbors like-minded.





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