Building a Better Ice Tool

firebert

firebert

Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
608
Forgive me for being a bit off topic, but I'd like to see a blade-smith's take on this sort of thing.

Ice climbing season is fast approaching, and it's time to start sharpening and re-grinding my picks. This got me to thinking that it may be possible to make my own with better steel and geometry than the stock models.

Almost every experienced ice climber modifies his pick geometry to suit his style. I know what shape I like, but steel choice is another story. Picks suffer a lot of abuse, swung into ice, torqued in cracks, and (accidentally) swung into rock. It is a lot to ask of the steel to maintain a sharp point and not break or bend. I usually have to re-grind my pick after every trip to bring performance back up.

What steel choices (and heat treat) would you guys recommend as ideal for this sort of work.

The picks are about 7" long and cut from 3/16" stock. It seems like an ideal application for water-jet cutting, followed by some simple grinding/filing.

I'm not sure that it's actually worth making my own; but it is at least interesting to think about.

Phillip
 
I would imagine S7 at about Rc 56-57 would be perfect.

A2 would probably be good to in the same Rc range. Production picks are probably a Mild-carbon steel like 1045-1055.

Keep us posted, sounds like a fun project.

-Josiah
 
my vote is the same as josiah's-S7 at max RcH (56-57).

i have tried to break a blade made from 1/8" stock doing semi reasonable things with it, and i couldn't...if you are interested in seeing the test check out my website.

i'm wondering how you would go about attaching the handles? could you just take out the blade and put in your own, with bolts or something? i have only looked at ice axes in passing, a couple years ago, so i didn't check out the construction details too carefully...

sounds like a neat project...depending on your steel choice and what processes you want done to it, you might be able to get away with it for around $100 (my best guess anyways) for a one-off item, maybe even less.
 
Hi Phillip-I'm an ice climber also,and I built my own ice tools a few years ago based on the Quark design-the only thing I didn't do, was make my own picks.It would have taken me too much time and effort,not to mention price of materials.Now as far as a better type of steel...I believe that the picks are purposely made from a "softer" steel specifically to take the abuse we neanderthals dish out.Imagine swinging your hardened steel picks into rock and having them shatter instead of just deforming,not to mention prolonged use in ice could develop stress fractures and fail at that perfect time(see Murphey's Law)-Just my $.02-I could be way off base here,but that is my opinion-If you do decide to try this keep us posted and let us know how things turn out.:D
Good luck

Shawn
 
I agree with Shawn. I grew up in Alaska ice climbing and wouldn't trust axe picks I made. There are no bad climbing companies for a reason. If the gear they make fails, people die. Black Diamond and such companies have done more testing and research on ice axes than any of us ever could. Some things are better not left to chance. There are enough ways to die ice climbing without your axes failing. Falling debris, ice pro failing, the entire fall crashing down, to long of a fall because placing ice pro every 10 feet is more trouble than it's worth ect ect ect.... I haven't touched my ice gear since I had a son for all these reasons. I would encourage you to stick to proven tools imo.
 
Dustin Golat said:
I agree with Shawn. I grew up in Alaska ice climbing and wouldn't trust axe picks I made. There are no bad climbing companies for a reason. If the gear they make fails, people die. Black Diamond and such companies have done more testing and research on ice axes than any of us ever could. Some things are better not left to chance. There are enough ways to die ice climbing without your axes failing. Falling debris, ice pro failing, the entire fall crashing down, to long of a fall because placing ice pro every 10 feet is more trouble than it's worth ect ect ect.... I haven't touched my ice gear since I had a son for all these reasons. I would encourage you to stick to proven tools imo.
Click to expand...

That makes a great deal of sense.

-Josiah
 
those arguments make alot of sense to me, and i completely understand the desire to stick to known names that have alot of experience and testing behind them...BUT...

i wonder if sticking to a "production" axe might be somewhat akin to production knives...there are certainly some very high quality production knives that have consistency and a known high quality level, but many people still argue that a custom knife is better. with a custom knife you have individual people depending on each knife for their reputation, and each piece gets the complete attention of the maker.

the analogy might apply here...since he will either be making them himself or having them custom made, they will get the personal touch to make sure that there is no way that they can concievably fail, since they will have his life hanging on the line. i would also assume that they would be rigorously tested before being used in a real situation, just as any piece of gear should.

i also wonder if, like many production knives, there are some compromises in the materials used in production ice axes to maintain decent quality while reducing cost and making manufacture easier... in the case of making his own, there would be no compromise at all.

i have no experience with ice axes, so take all of my comments with a grain of salt, but i can't help thinking that custom ice axes would be a good idea.
 
Hello Phillip,

I agree with Dustin. As a very active climber for the past 20 years, I've seen a lot of "stuff" happen with home made gear. It is very rare that UIAA and CE certified gear fails. There is alot that goes into the engineering and testing to meet these certification standards. Just my 0.02 cents.

Eric
 
While what you said is true, all of the best companies started making gear in their garages. Yvon Chouinard (founder of Black Diamond), made his company's equipment in his personal shop, by hand.

Most climbers would find it hard to climb without homemade gear (Ed Leeper's work, RP's, and so on).

Black Diamond's pick material has changed in the past few years for economical reasons (they used to use sandvik, I believe). It isn't practical for them to offer a premium pick material; doing so would be an admission that their current steel is inadequate.

I am mostly just curious, anyway. More of a hypothetical question, than anything.
 
firebert said:
While what you said is true, all of the best companies started making gear in their garages. Yvon Chouinard (founder of Black Diamond), made his company's equipment in his personal shop, by hand.

Most climbers would find it hard to climb without homemade gear (Ed Leeper's work, RP's, and so on).
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, there always has to be pioneers in every field. If you can accept the risk associated with it then that's totally cool. Yvon is a fantastic engineer and did great things from his personal shop. Leeper, Ray Jardine (space engineer) and many others blazed the trail.

I totally understand your interest in using better quality steel for your pick material. Just be prepared for the trial and error part that comes with it. Have a great ice season and climb safe. :thumbup:

Eric
 
Firebert I would agree to an extent but in Yvon's day a lot more climbers died due to gear failure. Making some gear is one thing but if you are a serious ice climber your picks will be put through alot more than most pro will ever see. I don't know what material Black Diamond has switched to but I truly doubt they would risk there reputation, there customers lives or huge lawsuits if they didn't believe the new steel was up to the task. My point is that when I make a blade and HT it there may be flaws I cannot see and I do not have the technology to detect them. Kevin talks about throwing blades people thought were fully hardened under the scope only to find flaws in the HT (if I remember right Kevin, correct me if I am wrong). I cannot say "go for it" when your life is on the line.

Siguy production knives fail constantly. I am not saying that custom knives are any better but the hands on approach makes it easier to notice problems as they arise, even so there are no guarantee they will not fail. Even one days worth of posts in the general forum will produce posts about well regarded knives that someone got a defective sample of. UIAA and CE certified gear has never failed me once in my life of climbing. Of course gear inspections and erring on the side of safety helped I am sure. Even Strider knives often come with issue that require them to go back for repair. I have never had an ice axe with any such problems.

My point is have fun, make knives but when it comes to climbing gear leave it to the professionals imho. If not at least try and figure out what constitutes effective and consistent fail safes to make sure you don't find out the hard way an internal crack or stress riser just cost you your life. I only mean all of this with your best interests at heart. Please don't take any of my arguments as condescending to your sense of adventure or knife making skills.
 
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I have never used an ice axe so I do not have first hand experience, but I think that it is possible to make a reliable tool using good materials and fasteners, simple and overbuilt designs and mechanical knowhow, I don't think it would be hard to exceed the standards of one.

Coincidently I was thinking about how to put a handle on an ice axe today, I imagined a head with a tang that extended 6-9" into the handle with 3 3/8" bolts holding it in place with an aluminum shaft. It would be a fun project, I say make it, have fun doing so, but if you do not feel confident climbing ice with it, use a store bought one, IMHO.
 
I by no means am implying that you shouldn't make one, only that I would not use it. Keith it sounds like you are talking about a mountaineering ice axe as opposed to a technical ice climbing axe. They are very different beast and a technical ice axe, especially one in use for mixed rock and ice are treated much more severely and would never survive with the hollow aluminum handles you find on mountain axes. It would be easy to overbuild one but then it would not function properly. Imagine 5 hours supported only by your forearms and calf muscles. the last thing you need is extra weight. Also a pick that it to thick will cause to much damage to the ice that is supporting you and your partner. Modern technical ice axes are as light as possible while still being bomb proof and are not cheap. I don't think it would be easy to build anything that light that is safer than what is available. Instead of thinking of this like building your own knife I think it would be more akin to building your own airbag for your car or your own parachute. If you have the engineering and technical know how then thats great but don't underestimate the role of this tool. It is your life on the line. Of course you could carry an extra set of axes but weight sucks when your vertical. I'll stop playing the overly concerned mom now. :)
 
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