Building a Buck - Which Steel?

I am going to be the odd duck here and state that I prefer 154cm over s30v. With all of the knives that I have used I have found that it takes a lot more to damage (roll or chip) my 154cm blades when compared to my s30v blades. I know that this is just a personal preference but it is based on the fact that I never let my knives get butter knife dull so edge retention is only of moderate concern. I like how little it takes to make my 154 blades extremely sharp. Just a couple of quick passes on a stone or strop and I am done.:thumbup:
 
334dave said:
i like both 440 HC and s30v Equality
for differing reasons
for edc and hard use on the job and not breaking the tip or blade
go with 440
if you are doing hunting and field dressing deer or other game
go with s30v
if it is about split on use
then the 154
tho it is a compromise between the two
if you have no idea what he will do with it and he is a office dude but not a hunter
and you dont know that he KNOWS how to sharpen a edge
go with the 440hc
it shines up great and is what buck uses on gold art knives.
425 M is not a fav of mine for many reasons
edit : if you want a clasic user look for a dot 110 dot dot marked blade
it is the first of Paul Bos heat treating and is Super!!!
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Haha, he is an office dude, but also an avid hunter. Deer hunter to be exact. It will be used for field dressing, skinning etc. Admitedly he doesnt know how to sharpen a good knife, but I'll be handling that for him. Sharpening wont be an issue.

David Martin said:
Adrock,A nice gift to give your brother.Have you built other folders before? What do you think he'll use it for? Thats a good list Josh posted.Besides S30V,Buck used two other vanadium steels BG42 and D2 that are good should you care to work w/ those. These other steels lack V yet are good edge holders,stainless and easier to polish and work;
154CPM,154CM and 440C. Of these six, in the categories mentioned theres a lot right and not much wrong. From a makers stand point the last 3 tool easier.Good luck and let us know how your project turns out.DM
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Actually I'm building a fixed alpha for him. It will strictly be a hunting knife. Not a tool or pry bar.

Buck_110 said:
Out of those three, the S30V will offer the most rust resistance. The S30V will also be able to be sharpened to the finest edge.

The 154CM is like a compromise between the two. It is less rust resistant than S30V. The edge produced will be a bit toothier than S30V too. It will however flex more than S30V before snapping...if it should be used as a prybar rather than a knife.

And we all know what 420HC is.

If soley used as a knife, and not some other tool, the S30V is the most solid choice.
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Thank you for another good relevant answer. Its strictly going to be used as a reliable sharp edge for hunting. So I'm gathering the S30V is the way to go.

Flatlander1963 said:
I think the OP is asking about the 194 Alpha Hunter Fixed blade.
To get this knife in S30V you'll have to do a Custom Shop order as your title suggests you to thinking of doing. The difference in cost between 154cm and S30V is $13 more for the S30V. That's the way to go. Also, you won't see that many of the S30V so it'll be more coveted as a special piece.

If price is an issue the street price on Fleabay for the 154cm and Rosewood is $82 shipped. That's a pretty good deal. As a practical matter, 154cm will suffice as a premium steel for most people who like knives. But the S30V knife is a better knife IMO

One other thought, the Buck forum is mostly a crowd of regulars and there is quite a bit of digressing and limited thread discipline. If you stay here you should consider getting used to it. Its a bunch of old guys with attention issues if you understand what I'm saying :D:D:D
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I'm a Busse fan, so price isnt a problem. I wish all my knives were below $200. I own many Buck knives though and have come to trust their real world useability. When he drooled over my real tree Alpha Hunter I decided I'd build him a custom one.

I can appreciate the non-thread related banter... but I asked a fairly specific question. Its basically useless banter falling on deaf ears, considering I skip over the long winded answers with info pertaining to anything other than what I asked. To each his own. :thumbup:

Thank you to all who helped with the question I asked. I think my answer is clear. I'll be sure to post some pics when I get it.
 
I use the Buck 3-stone sharpening system and have no trouble sharpening the S30V on my 110. When the blade gets slightly dull, 15 or 20 strokes (on each side) with the Arkansas stone gets it back to razor sharp. Occasionally I've gone to the Fine diamond stone, but never have used the coarse diamond stone. Practice and learn to hold the knife at the right angle. It's not that difficult. If my blade ever gets very dull, I'll just let Buck sharpen it rather than spend the time myself.

IOW don't be intimidated by the S30V. It's a very good steel with the Bos heat treatment.
 
Steel is like a good internet rumor; a lot of mystique, some truth, some slight of hand and a whole lot of (mis)conceptions. In terms of corrosion resistance, 420HC is superior to both S30V or 154CM. We have run a number of tests/trials in our Engineering and QA groups over the a number of years, and 420HC consistently provides the best corrosion resistance. It is also better than 440C in this area.

As far as edge holding, using Buck's heat treat and edging process, S30V is best, 154CM next and then 420HC; I specifically reference Buck's processes here because we have (CATRA) tested other's products (heat treated and edged by them) and have found knives with 154CM, ATS34, etc do not perform (edge retention) as well as our 420HC; don't under estimate the value of heat treat and proper edging/sharpening.

On toughness, in most cases, S30V will probably outperform 420HC and 154CM. To obtain maximum sharpness and edge holding out of the 420HC, we push the envelope on hardness for this type of material. That is not to say 420HC does not have some ductility, but maximum toughness for 420HC would be obtained in the Rc 55-58 range, but that plays heck with edge retention. The chemistry of S30V is such that when properly heat treated it give very good edge retention and good toughness.

Oh, heat treat can also have an impact on corrosion resistance; poor/improper heat treat can negatively impact the corrosion resistance of all of these steels.

ATS34 is Japanese 154CM; the chemistry is virtually identical. ATS34 is produced by Hitachi in Japan, and 154CM is produced by Crucible Metals in the US- BTW, Crucible was just purcahsed in bankruptcy by someone else, but they are continuing operations. A number of years ago, 154CM was difficult to get for companies such as Buck, we did not use enough of it to make it worth while for Crucible to produce for us. But at the time Hitachi was more than willing to supply the cutlery markets. this changed a few years ago, and the availabilty of 154CM was no longer a problem and for us at least, became slightly less expensive than ATS34. Thus the transition to 154CM.

So, if you want a "user" knife, can afford the upcharge, and want the best edge retention, S30V is your best option. If you want a "looker"/display knife, don't spend the extra money, just go with the 420HC. If you want a good general use knife and can't afford the premium steel the 420HC also makes a good choice. To ME, the 154CM is not a value choice either way; it is better at edge retention than 420HC, but if you're going to spend extra for that, spend a littel more and get the S30V- that is a personal opinion (I hope I haven't offended any fans of 154CM). I have carried 420HC knives for many years. I do now carry an S30V small Vantage with Paperstone handles, but that's sort of like the car lot manager getting to drive one of the Ferraris, it's one of the fringe benefits of being in that role.

Bill Keys
Director of Manufcturing and Engineering
Buck Knives, Inc
 
Steel is like a good internet rumor; a lot of mystique, some truth, some slight of hand and a whole lot of (mis)conceptions. In terms of corrosion resistance, 420HC is superior to both S30V or 154CM. We have run a number of tests/trials in our Engineering and QA groups over the a number of years, and 420HC consistently provides the best corrosion resistance. It is also better than 440C in this area.

As far as edge holding, using Buck's heat treat and edging process, S30V is best, 154CM next and then 420HC; I specifically reference Buck's processes here because we have (CATRA) tested other's products (heat treated and edged by them) and have found knives with 154CM, ATS34, etc do not perform (edge retention) as well as our 420HC; don't under estimate the value of heat treat and proper edging/sharpening.

On toughness, in most cases, S30V will probably outperform 420HC and 154CM. To obtain maximum sharpness and edge holding out of the 420HC, we push the envelope on hardness for this type of material. That is not to say 420HC does not have some ductility, but maximum toughness for 420HC would be obtained in the Rc 55-58 range, but that plays heck with edge retention. The chemistry of S30V is such that when properly heat treated it give very good edge retention and good toughness.

Oh, heat treat can also have an impact on corrosion resistance; poor/improper heat treat can negatively impact the corrosion resistance of all of these steels.

ATS34 is Japanese 154CM; the chemistry is virtually identical. ATS34 is produced by Hitachi in Japan, and 154CM is produced by Crucible Metals in the US- BTW, Crucible was just purcahsed in bankruptcy by someone else, but they are continuing operations. A number of years ago, 154CM was difficult to get for companies such as Buck, we did not use enough of it to make it worth while for Crucible to produce for us. But at the time Hitachi was more than willing to supply the cutlery markets. this changed a few years ago, and the availabilty of 154CM was no longer a problem and for us at least, became slightly less expensive than ATS34. Thus the transition to 154CM.

So, if you want a "user" knife, can afford the upcharge, and want the best edge retention, S30V is your best option. If you want a "looker"/display knife, don't spend the extra money, just go with the 420HC. If you want a good general use knife and can't afford the premium steel the 420HC also makes a good choice. To ME, the 154CM is not a value choice either way; it is better at edge retention than 420HC, but if you're going to spend extra for that, spend a littel more and get the S30V- that is a personal opinion (I hope I haven't offended any fans of 154CM). I have carried 420HC knives for many years. I do now carry an S30V small Vantage with Paperstone handles, but that's sort of like the car lot manager getting to drive one of the Ferraris, it's one of the fringe benefits of being in that role.

Bill Keys
Director of Manufcturing and Engineering
Buck Knives, Inc
 
Wow, good information Mr. Keys. I'm new to this forum and the more I look at it the more I like it here.
 
Thanks Bill. Are there people out there that don't use their knives? Weirdos. This will be a hunting knife for my brother, and will most definitely get used. S30V it is. Thanks for chiming in.
 
adrock1978 said:
Thanks Bill. Are there people out there that don't use their knives? Weirdos. This will be a hunting knife for my brother, and will most definitely get used. S30V it is. Thanks for chiming in.
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There's nothing weird about it. If I were buying knives only to use, I'd have quit at five or six (I have near 300 Bucks alone). I buy most of them to keep, fondle and admire just because I like them. It's no weirder than any other kind of collection.
 
Plumberdv said:
There's nothing weird about it. If I were buying knives only to use, I'd have quit at five or six (I have near 300 Bucks alone). I buy most of them to keep, fondle and admire just because I like them. It's no weirder than any other kind of collection.
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Relax man. To each his own. I wouldn't be so concerned about the type of steel my knife was made out of, if it was going to sit on a shelf. I'm only asking because it will be a user.

Personally I consider a knife a tool. I dont know too many people that collect crescent wrenches, or 20oz framing hammers.
 
adrock1978 said:
Relax man. To each his own. I wouldn't be so concerned about the type of steel my knife was made out of, if it was going to sit on a shelf. I'm only asking because it will be a user.

Personally I consider a knife a tool. I dont know too many people that collect crescent wrenches, or 20oz framing hammers.
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Oh, I'm plenty relaxed. Like you said, to each his own. I just don't appreciate having myself and millions of others labeled as "weirdos" because we like to own and collect knives we don't use and abuse everyday.
 
Ok, sorry. Didn't mean to offend. What would you call a person that collected acetylene torches, and didn't use them? :D
 
adrock1978 said:
Ok, sorry. Didn't mean to offend. What would you call a person that collected acetylene torches, and didn't use them? :D
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A collector of acetylene torches. If that's where his interst lies, that's his thing, and doesn't make him weird. Same with matchbooks, pez dispensors, etc, etc.
 
Plumberdv said:
A collector of acetylene torches. If that's where his interst lies, that's his thing, and doesn't make him weird. Same with matchbooks, pez dispensors, etc, etc.
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Ok dude. I'm just having fun. I see nothing wrong with knife collecting.
 
I appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into a knife. Many knives are build for display purposes though they could still function if needed. I'm a hand bookbinder and leatherworker and though the objects I make are functional, I take them to the level of a work of art, not unlike many of the Buck knives I see on the Buck Pictures thread.

If you ever find a craftsman who makes art out of acetylene torches I would be interested in taking a look.
 
To me, ATS 34 is the best combo of fine grain, toughness, resistance to rolling the edge and ease of sharpening.

S30V always seems like it has mongo carbides, and getting a smooth, sharp, durable edge is hard. 154 CM crucible seems to be very close to ATS 34, in some knives I have its great, (an AL Mar Eagle auto comes to mind) I have a dozen or so of the ATS 34 odyssey's and I have yet to find a EDC blade thats better.
 
for me it is easy...if they put in a 110 i want it..
i know a guy that collect ax's.. and another old tools
my wife says it was a old folks saying that
any one that collected knives was a homicidal manic..
i would be almost 20 grand better off if i did not collect them..
dont know why either
was the first knife i bought as a kid
and when i pulled out that 110 and the MEN around admired it
well i guess i was hooked for life..
sounds like a good topic for its own thread thought..
 
First off Thanks Mr. Keys, You do not realize how we appreciate any info from the factory. When any of you guys get on here and give great info we all stop and listen and feel better for the experience.

Just to get to say something on collecting,
I have known for a time a man in Alaska, a bush pilot, bear hunter, NRA firearms instructor, who collects cast iron skillets. I have been with him on business trips a couple of times and we hit junk shops,he looked for skillets and I looked for Bucks. So I have know doubt someone collects hammers and cresent wrenches somewhere. I collect one series ,well two really, of pocketknives because at this instant it is my number one hobby, in a couple of weeks I will be a deer hunter interested in user knives for two weeks, then I will be interested in shotguns and duck decoys for a month or two. I have shovels, sledge hammers, screwdrivers, lots of work junk that to someone someday will be classics. But not to me now. Go figure.

Yesterday a the local BBQ,Bikes and Band Car Show, they played a classic song while I cooked Bracts for charity sale. It was a CLASSIC Beach Boy Song and I realized sort of for the first time MY songs were considered classics by younger folks. Sorta works the same way for hobbies, some folks just see things in a different way. Someone sees just an ole cresent wrench and someone sees a Sears Craftsman 8 inch chromed 1959 in mint condition.

300Bucks
 
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