Bulldog and Hen & Rooster questions

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rprocter

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i have a small collection of slip joints, mostly case, queen, boker and eyebrand; and many in stag, my favorite. i am thinking of expanding into bulldog and maybe hen and rooster. so i'd like to hear some from folks who have these brands.
i understand they are made by boker. are they any different, or same knife, different shield, tang stamp and blade etch ?
bulldog seems to have different lines: 5th generation, 20th anniversary, fight'n dog stamp, others ? which are the best ?
how do they compare with others in the same price range ? which steel would you advise for a daily outdoor user. are they suitable for this or meant more for display ?
i look forward to learning about these brands, thanks roland
 
Bulldogs are good, especially the older ones. They are about the same level as Eye Brand or Boker, but most older Bulldogs seem to have superior handle material from the ones I've seen. Check out this thread-
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=467210

Hen and Rooster is still Bertram Cutlery I think. Bulldog is Olbertz Cutlery. Both have good reputations , most are carbon steel, a few are stainless. I have quite a few older Bulldogs, they're very nicely put together. Don't have a H&R yet, but I'm expecting a nice 4 blade stag model shortly. I'll post a few pics when it arrives.
 
The Hen and Rooster trademark is owned by the Smokey Mountain Knifeworks guys; most of them I've seen are identical to a counterpart in either an Olbertz made Bulldog or a Boker knife. I have one Hen and Rooster red bone 5-1/4'' folding hunter that is identical to a Boker 2020 and one Hen and Rooster "cattle knife" jumbo equal end stockman that is identical to the Bulldog "cattle knife" with the exception of the pinched bolsters on the Bulldogs. Hen and Roosters are contract built knives, and so far I haven't come across any of the slipjoints that didn't appear to be Olbertz or Boker. The fixed blades are Toledo Spain made by a company I don't know the name of.

Most of the Hen and Roosters that I've seen are little beauties, hard to resist blowing in a paycheck! :thumbup:
 
The Hen and Rooster trademark is owned by the Smokey Mountain Knifeworks
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When did that come about? Hen & Rooster has been marked Bertram (Carl Bertram Reinh & Sohn) for well over a century, from 1865. The company was bought out by AG Russell in the mid 1970s when it was facing bankruptcy. Bertram H&R knives have been produced by Robert Klaas (Kissing Cranes) in Solingen since 1981. They are sold in the US by Smokey Mountain, but many other retailers sell them as well.
 
o.k. so i'm still not clear. who actually makes bulldog and hen & rooster ? are they made in the boker factory, or the place that makes eye brand, or somewhere else ? and are they using the same parts as the "parent" company knives or are the specs for bulldog and h & r each unique? if the parts are not the same, are they of better or lesser quality? and the same for fit and finish ? furthermore, there are a few different bulldog tang stamps. is there a heirarchy ?
and finally, where does fight'n rooster fit into all of this ?
i know, that's a lot of questions, but as a relative newby, it's now obvious to me that i have this condition of being a severe knife knut because i need to know as much as i can about every knife that i purchase. (like the 30 i have this year so far) thanks, roland
 
Bulldogs are made in the Olbertz factory in Solingen Germany as they have been since Charlie Dorton had the first ones made by Friedrich Olbertz in 1978. There is a chronological order as to when Bulldogs were made. Different stamps, logos and numbers were used, and are unique to each generation. Older Bulldogs, Gen 1-3, are very good quality. Later Bulldogs aren't as good.

As far as I know, Bertram Cutlery Hen and Rooster knives are currently made by Robert Klaas, maker of the Kissing Cranes line of knives, also in Solingen Germany, as they have been since 1981. Prior to that, H&R knives had been made in the Bertram factory in Solingen since 1865. That closed in 1980 following a 5 year struggle by AG Russell to save it. From the 1960s into the 70s Bertram made knives on contract for retailers such as Carter Cutlery, Gutman, and AG Russell, all of which were marked with the retailers name along with the H&R logo. Early H&R knives are top quality, some say that the ones made in the first half of the 20th century are about the best factory slipjoints ever made, and prices reflect that. Decent examples command high prices. For example, a Gutman marked 4bl congress sold yesterday for over $200.

Fightin Rooster is a separate maker also, a line sold by Frank Buster. They are made in Germany as well, at Olbertz I think. Buster Cutlery had a long standing relationship with Jim Parker, purveyor of the Bulldog line, and supplied some of the knives Parker sold early on from Parker-Frost Cutlery before Charlie Dortons knives came in. The Fightin Rooster knives are quite similiar to Bulldogs, about the same quality.
 
Arathol, thank you for taking the time for your clear explanation. so, generally in terms of quality it goes like this : pre 1980 H & R, GEN. 1-3 Bulldogs,then Fight'n R. and modern bulldogs and finally post 1980 H & R. ?
hopefully i have it right. i want to expand my collection and it will be one of these 3. at least now i have a better idea of what i might be looking at.
any suggestions for one of these knives that would be a good around the property outdoor user? i don't have a copperhead yet so i am leaning towards that pattern, but really just want an example of really good german workmanship along with a good user steel. thanks from the kootenays, roland
 
If you are looking for a user, best bet is probably a newer Hen and Rooster. The older Bulldogs are very limited production, some patterns only made in runs of 1o or 20, up to 250 or so. Prices seem to be going up on these, especially the multiblade stag knives. Older H&Rs are getting pretty pricey for a using knife too. Fightin Roosters are ok. The one I have looks pretty as long as you don't look too close. It didn't really impress me with fit and finish. I prefer the Bulldogs. The new H&R knives are pretty good, as good if not better than the other choices without the steep prices.
I took a look through the safe and found an older H&R stockman, model 293DS, 4 1/2" long, marked 1995. I almost forgot I had it, its been in the back of the safe for a few years. Its stag, stainless, good fit and finish, pinched and threaded bolsters, nice snap to the blades.

IMGP2421.jpg
 
I've been under the impression that Robert Klaas has been out of business for several years?? A.G. Russell would know for sure, he's been around all of this forever. Can somebody ask him? I know he posts here, but this forum has no private messaging allowed.
 
I have a newer Hen and Rooster congress that I carry frequently. The fit and finish are very good, and the springs are all tight and there is no blade play. I have been wondering if this was indicative of the rest since it is the only HR I have handled. I also have a Bulldog Sodbuster that is a great user... I don't like it as well as my Kissing Crane, but it is still a fine knife for the price.
 
I've been under the impression that Robert Klaas has been out of business for several years
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Phil, you got me thinking about this now. I did some looking around, and heres what I found-
Klaas is still around, still sells Kissing Cranes brand knives etc, still has an address in Solingen and maintains a website. However, has anyone ever wondered why these German knives can be sold so cheap? I did. It seems that lately all is not as it seems in der Vaterland.

In poking about, I found a disturbing trend in reports that many knives marked Solingen Germany, including many sold by Klaas, Boker and others are not really made there, but outsourced to Italy, China and other places where making such things is dirt cheap. One report included an account of someone who had actually seen blades being stamped "Solingen Germay" in a Chinese factory. Fury in Maniago Italy is one maker thats specifically mentioned as the origin of some of the Kissing Cranes line. I guess that it really doesn't matter where its actually made, as long as the company keeps a "store front" as it were in Solingen then the knives can be marked as such despite what the laws say both in Germany and the US. So, next time you buy a German made knife, you got to wonder if its really what it seems to be. :confused:
 
stamping a blade "Germany" when it is actually made in another country is fraud. the tang stamp is supposed to show the country of ORIGIN, where that piece of metal first become a blade or a knife.
this information needs to be broadcast far and wide; even better the companies and individuals involved need to be exposed, even prosecuted and if found guilty, fined. take the bottom right out from the German cutlery business and perhaps they'll revert to honesty and "homemade" goods, and i believe people will be willing to pay the additional cost for the authentic goods.
 
I like my Bulldog Cuttin' Horse sowbelly, but I kinda prefer my H & R canoe with half stops! Bulldog 1st gen is still a bit 'rough' when opening, but the H & R is very nice! canoe just seems to ride so nice in the pocket, and the main blade is very ok for using...
 
I bought an H&R Mini Canoe from Smoky Mountains catalog in 1996 just because I liked it's looks. I have carried the knife since then and can't imagine a better knife for my light use. It has SS steel blades which have been sharpened perhaps once a year. It has remained tight and still has good snap. I bought a "coffin" style H&R as a gift in 1998. Same quality, great steel. Not expensive knives, relatively, but something worth having in every respect.
 
dalksters said:
i have heard that hen rooster is a frost knife now
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I agree...

Sometimes early in the morning a cable shopping channel replays the "Knife Collector's Show" , one of the hosts supposedly works for Frost. He has mentioned on several occasions that Frost owns H&R. They also claim that they use steel from H&R located in Solingen Germany to produce Rough Rider knives. But they never mention where Rough Rider knives are made.:)

Here's a picture of a H&R Sowbelly I recently bought. IMO the quality is not as good as Bulldog knives I have from 2004 , but not bad either. The springs are a little "lethargic" when opening , but have a good snap when closing.

HR.jpg
 
rprocter said:
stamping a blade "Germany" when it is actually made in another country is fraud. the tang stamp is supposed to show the country of ORIGIN, where that piece of metal first become a blade or a knife.
this information needs to be broadcast far and wide; even better the companies and individuals involved need to be exposed, even prosecuted and if found guilty, fined. take the bottom right out from the German cutlery business and perhaps they'll revert to honesty and "homemade" goods, and i believe people will be willing to pay the additional cost for the authentic goods.
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It has nothing to do with the "German" cutlery industry, it has to do with the American cutlery industry. The importers.

Please be cardful, a previous poster used Bokers name and I am pretty sure that they are NOT using parts from the east. They have a factory in Argentina but all of those knives are so marked.

There are huge penalties for mis-marking a knife "U.S.A." but do not seem to be much for marking a Chinese or Hong Kong POS as being from Germany or Japan.

For most of the past 200 years a knife with no country of origin ment that it was made in the United States, now it means it probably was not.

If the knife has a really low price it is almost surely made in China.

W. R. Case has sworn to remain a U. S. made knife. If the folks running Queen have any sense that company will also.

You just have to trust the people you buy from, can you?
 
Klaas is importing some from Italy, the Italy marking is stamped on the liners of of their stilettoes/bow tie folders.

Hen and Rooster was/is Olbertz produced for Frost, but more production is moving to Spain.


:).
 
bob bowie said:
Klaas is importing some from Italy, the Italy marking is stamped on the liners of of their stilettoes/bow tie folders.

Hen and Rooster was/is Olbertz produced for Frost, but more production is moving to Spain. :).
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Jim tells me that the Hen & Rooster knives being made today are made by Klaas and no one else.

I had understood that Klaas was out of business, I was wrong, I cannot remember who told me but they were wrong.
 
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