Burr/wire edge?

I cannot speak to the plastic cutting board being an issue. All mine are hardwood (maple, cherry) and my edges hold up pretty well. I do try to cut at a slight angle so the apex isn't impacting square every time. Plus, for me 10 minutes is the entire amount of cutting for a meal, maybe less. I recently touched up my Dexter chef's knife after about 30-40 minutes work time on the cutting board since it wasn't cutting tomato as cleanly as I like (and keeping in mind 80% of my knife use is chopping w/ the first 2-3 inches of the heel). Before touching it up I dropped an olive on it from about 8" up and it stuck half its depth on the blade.

But...when my kitchen knives dull they don't normally throw back light, and certainly not within a few minutes of use. Your sharpening prep as described sounds solid, so I'd recommend wen you believe you are finished wrap a sheet of dry paper around one of your dry stones - preferably a coarse one - and strop with that, using moderate pressure at the same grind angle.

Then inspect again. This reliably polishes up any latent burrs/wires that might still be hanging around, which I highly suspect is the issue here.

My usual with my softish waterstones is to grind to the apex with the 1k - for a utility edge I might make a leading pass or three on the 1k, followed by a trailing pass or two, and then microbevel with trailing strokes on the 8k, maybe 5 passes - leave lots of tooth.

For a chopping edge I go to the 4k as above and finish trailing passes on the 8k maybe 10 passes or so to get a finer edge. Then normally strop on paper as part of QC, just a few passes.

This method changes based on the stones I'm using but the basic stays the same. If diamond plates I normally run to a coarse or fine and then microbevel with leading pass only on an extra fine or e-extra fine. If using my Juuma stones I'll finish with only leading passes on the 800 or 2k and go right to a Suehiro Rika 8k. That stone is hard enough I can do a few leading passes and then finish with a couple trailing ones. All depends on how hard the stone is.

Occasionally I will just use a Norton Crystalon, grind the edge to a fine and reclaim the mud on a sheet of paper - strop on that in lieu of a microbevel to make a fast and uber grabby edge that can still shave arm hair.

Maintenance for all is on a hard strop (paper over stone or Washboard strop) with blend of SiC and diamond or the reclaimed grit from a Crystalon stone.
 
Masibu said:
I generally apply around 200g (1/2 pound?) When sharpening- more if its a heavily dulled knife that needs a lot of work. After the edge stops reflecting light I go as light as I can (estimate is maybe 50g or so) with edge leading strokes to reduce any burr, same again with the micro bevel.

I finish with edge trailing strokes if im using water stones as it's generally more difficult to apex edge leading with friable stones without dulling the edge. My norton coarse/fine combo I can do edge leading with easily but my next hard, fine stone is a shapton pro 5k (excluding a couple of naturals). I can try using my harder stones but I'm still determined to get results with my softer stones as well if only to develop my skills with them.

I'm sure I've tried that high angle approach before a few times and not gotten any improvements (reduced sharpness) but I'll try again. It's reading through pages such as that one that is driving me to perfect my sharpening skills
Click to expand...
Hi,
That sounds good.
I would try high angle deburr then microbevel with the shapton and see what happens
Then try double or triple the amount of microbevel passes (thicker edge) and see what happens.
Third try would be a higher angle, ex 15 degrees per side, and see what happens
To get a better idea if its more be sharpening technique issue
or blade/heattreat/angle/thickness issue.


Which norton do you have, india (orange) or ?
 
HeavyHanded said:
I cannot speak to the plastic cutting board being an issue. All mine are hardwood (maple, cherry) and my edges hold up pretty well. I do try to cut at a slight angle so the apex isn't impacting square every time. Plus, for me 10 minutes is the entire amount of cutting for a meal, maybe less. I recently touched up my Dexter chef's knife after about 30-40 minutes work time on the cutting board since it wasn't cutting tomato as cleanly as I like (and keeping in mind 80% of my knife use is chopping w/ the first 2-3 inches of the heel). Before touching it up I dropped an olive on it from about 8" up and it stuck half its depth on the blade.

But...when my kitchen knives dull they don't normally throw back light, and certainly not within a few minutes of use. Your sharpening prep as described sounds solid, so I'd recommend wen you believe you are finished wrap a sheet of dry paper around one of your dry stones - preferably a coarse one - and strop with that, using moderate pressure at the same grind angle.

Then inspect again. This reliably polishes up any latent burrs/wires that might still be hanging around, which I highly suspect is the issue here.

My usual with my softish waterstones is to grind to the apex with the 1k - for a utility edge I might make a leading pass or three on the 1k, followed by a trailing pass or two, and then microbevel with trailing strokes on the 8k, maybe 5 passes - leave lots of tooth.

For a chopping edge I go to the 4k as above and finish trailing passes on the 8k maybe 10 passes or so to get a finer edge. Then normally strop on paper as part of QC, just a few passes.

This method changes based on the stones I'm using but the basic stays the same. If diamond plates I normally run to a coarse or fine and then microbevel with leading pass only on an extra fine or e-extra fine. If using my Juuma stones I'll finish with only leading passes on the 800 or 2k and go right to a Suehiro Rika 8k. That stone is hard enough I can do a few leading passes and then finish with a couple trailing ones. All depends on how hard the stone is.

Occasionally I will just use a Norton Crystalon, grind the edge to a fine and reclaim the mud on a sheet of paper - strop on that in lieu of a microbevel to make a fast and uber grabby edge that can still shave arm hair.

Maintenance for all is on a hard strop (paper over stone or Washboard strop) with blend of SiC and diamond or the reclaimed grit from a Crystalon stone.
Click to expand...

I like the paper 'strop' over the stone idea, thats one thing I haven't tried yet. When you say "moderate pressure" how much pressure do you mean? About as much as applied when sharpening or lighter as though I'm doing my final strokes on the stone?

bucketstove said:
Hi,
That sounds good.
I would try high angle deburr then microbevel with the shapton and see what happens
Then try double or triple the amount of microbevel passes (thicker edge) and see what happens.
Third try would be a higher angle, ex 15 degrees per side, and see what happens
To get a better idea if its more be sharpening technique issue
or blade/heattreat/angle/thickness issue.


Which norton do you have, india (orange) or ?
Click to expand...

Looks like there's a few things I can try yet. My norton is a coarse/fine india combo stone (black/orange). I use it mostly for my softer blades or if I really need to go ham on a really out of shape blade as its impossible to gauge (at least with how much pressure I can reasonably apply).
 
Masibu said:
I like the paper 'strop' over the stone idea, thats one thing I haven't tried yet. When you say "moderate pressure" how much pressure do you mean? About as much as applied when sharpening or lighter as though I'm doing my final strokes on the stone?
Click to expand...

About as hard as your finishing passes when done with compound.

You can go a good deal harder than that, especially if done on plain paper at the original grind angle, and then a few light passes at a higher angle.
 
Alrighty so tonight I brought a hard rubber board from home to use for cutting in place of the plastic board I would usually use at work. I touched the blade up on a 3k grit stone. I was more cauitious of how many edge trailing strokes used this time plus finished my honing on paper over a coarse stone to (hopefully) remove any burrs. I sliced the majority of the shallots on the rubber board (9 bunches out of 10) and the edge didnt seem to noticably dull in use. I inspectd the edge and there was the barest hint of light reflecting around the tip. Knife still shaves pretty well. One thing that really stood out to me was how grabby the knife was; it felt like I was digging into the board as I was slicing. I don't use a rock chop method of cutting usually but I imagine it would be a little difficult to do.

I saved the last bunch of shallots for the plastic board at work. After this single bunch I inspected the edge and saw much more light reflecting off the edge compared to when I was using the hard rubber board. I also noticed that sense of the knife digging into the board didnt occur with the plastic board and so it felt a little smoother.

I repeated the process with an 8k stone to see if that sense of grabiness on the rubber board remained (which it did).

It would seem that the board does have a pretty strong influence on the edge, however my rubber board is rather small and I would prefer not to leave it at work. That being the case, perhaps id be better off using softer blades on these boards (although I'm still determined to get a result with my harder knives)
 
Another update if anyones interested (Ive been using a Ginsanko sukenari gyuto). Edge retention has increased significantly after a simple board change. No apparent loss of sharpness (still shaves easily) tonight after slicing 5kg jalapenos, 5kg onion and 15 bunches of shallots. I felt a little more confident in my sharpening and decided to put assymetric bevels on the knife again (grind low right, higher left and then 50/50 micro) as I hadn't noticed any improvement from changing it to 50/50 and I prefer the way the knife cuts food in this manner.

I will try bringing other knives at work periodically to see if they all respond the same way to each board but I still dont really know why the hard plastic is really so bad for the edge or if im doing something incorrect. Im curious as to what I can do to eliminate that issue as these boards are pretty much standard for commercial kitchens.
 
I am very interested in this topic! Real stories about real use of knives are pretty much always interesting. You have a nice grasp of sharpening *and* you are doing commercial kitchen work, so this is extra good.

You mentioned that your rubber board you brought to work was kind of too small and not really suited well to the kitchen. Have you obtained another board that's bigger? Or still using your personal "too small" board?

Brian.
 
You guys saying, 'the Norton stones are glazed'. This sounds like they need to be cleaned. In my meat markets no one took the time to clean them. Plus,
I would notice the SiC stones were dished. So, no one would level them either. That's the normal life of stones used in a commercial operation. DM
 
This topic needs a picture. Here is the poly cutting board I'm talking about with 3 knife examples that would be found in a commercial meat market. Just not
the middle knife, it would be found in a deli. and I have seen some used at Rudy's barbecue. The bottom knife is a good standard 6'' boning knife and the top model is a 9'' breaking / slicing blade. This one is not seen much in home kitchens today but very popular in commercial meat markets. If the meat market sells New York strip cuts, it is likely cut with this blade. DM
cuttingB.jpg
 
NY Strip and Tri-Tip seem to be the only cuts I buy lately...with an occasional sirloin when the first two aren't available. Thanks for the education on which knives are used for butchering, David.
 
bgentry said:
I am very interested in this topic! Real stories about real use of knives are pretty much always interesting. You have a nice grasp of sharpening *and* you are doing commercial kitchen work, so this is extra good.

You mentioned that your rubber board you brought to work was kind of too small and not really suited well to the kitchen. Have you obtained another board that's bigger? Or still using your personal "too small" board?

Brian.
Click to expand...

Oops, I got busy over Christmas and neglected to come back here. I do have a (slightly) larger board which is more practical although still slightly too small for regular commercial use (decent enough for home though). I could order a full sized one but they arent exactly cheap (around $100 AUD a few years ago just for the smaller boards). They only come in the one colour from what I've seen (an off-white, slightly brown) and it's kinda protocol to use different coloured boards for different tasks (yellow for chicken, red for raw meat, brown for cooked meat, green for veg, blue for seafood and white for anything else).

I have had a bit of a change in my work environment and I'm not doing much food prep anymore so I've left the board at home and gone back to using the boards at work. They aren't nearly as forgiving as the rubber boards (although I was fortunate enough to find a slightly softer plastic board) and kill the edge pretty quickly so I've gone back to using a softer misono Aus-8 gyuto for now. Edge wear seems to be roughly the same as the harder blade on the poly boards.

After looking into steels recently it seems my current steel is fairly coarse so it's looking as though my next purchase will be another steel (wishing I kept my old polished one now) and seeing if I can find any notable difference between using that and the 3000 grit stone that I've primarily been touching up on. Im not expecting much of a difference however it's more ideal to touch up on something you can hold in your hand without the need for water/oil during service
 
Most All U.S. meat markets use the white poly cutting boards. They last a long time, clean up well but are hard on a knife's edge.
Commercial knives here have mostly 420hc steel. Aus-8 is a better steel. For my home processing I use mostly 440C steel. I don't see this
grade of steel in use in meat markets. It's more expensive and harder to sharpen but gives much better edge holding. Using a knife to just
cut up veggies any knife steel will hold up a long time. Where one will notice edge retention is trimming brisket, slicing New York strip and top or bottom round roast. DM
 
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