Busse Steel heart/ Fehrman First Strike

[Cobalt]

I don't have a FSH, but do have a Steelheart E, as well as a couple of Fehrmans.

Once you hold them, they are quite different. I wouldn't think of the Fehrman as a knock off or copy at all. It has a much thinner point, and a thinner primary grind. I have found the 3V to have better edge holding than INFI. Not that INFI is bad... So far, they both take impact resistance well enough so that I'm probably not going to find out which one is better. I don't care much for the finger grooves in the First Strike, they tend to get in the way of different grips. That's a highly subjective thing. Both knives are built to take a ton of abuse, which I like. It doesn't get much better than high flat grinds , 1/4 inch stock, and micarta, IMHO.

I would take the FSH for the ergonomics. The steels are both excellent, I think they would both fill the bill steel-wise.

I think that heat treat is everything in any steel and if you check out Cliffs review of 3V you will see differing results depending on the heat treat. I am not saying Fehrman's heat treat is no good, but if a knife comes out with improper heat treat then it could be a problem. Cliff had some issues with the Fehrman knife. However, he had no issues with the Ed Schot 3V blade and I am not sure who heat treated that one, but I'd bet it was Paul Bos.

My latest acquisitions are two 5 inch serious duty 3V custom blades designed by hankins with some minor input by me and made by Hankins which are very nice and can probably last longer than most steels. The 3V was heat treated by Paul Bos so it doesn't get any better than that.

Since the knife is the size of an NO (and actually looks somewhat like an FNO) it could be readily compared. They are flat ground as well. I hve not used them yet. Maybe it's time to compare.

 

[wetdog1911]

Never mind the fact that the Bachan Behemoth is now the Extreme Judgment (I wonder who got in touch with who on that one.)

Not sure about that, but Sean did get design credit and IIRC the first one produced. It IS an outstanding design. I'm going to put the Behemoth to work in the yard this weekend. It was used when I bought it, and bought under the condition that I use it. Not a problem there.

Cliff Stamp did have a problem with the EJ. Not so much the design as with the steel used, or the heat treat of. There was chipping and/or fractures/rippling of the edge doing Cliffs woodwork. Batoning or chopping, I don't remember, but the thread is either in the General knife or Testing sub forum if anyone cares to look. Cliff returned the knife.

I toyed with the idea of sending the Behemoth to Cliff for a side by side with the EJ for about 10 sec. LOL Then a BIG voice inside said "Are you out of your freaking mind!?"

LOL He IS getting a MOAB to play with isn't he?

Rob

 

[sodak]

Cobalt,

Quit teasing us and post a picture, would you? Yes, you and wetdog1911 are right, Cliff did have some issues with his 3V. I haven't, but also readily admit that I haven't used mine that hard yet. Time will tell.

Veering off topic somewhat: I'm finding that 3V is holding it's own with D2 in edge holding, which is high praise from me. I love 3V in smaller knives, very tough for small knife work and great edge holding. I can do some very hard wood work, gouging out hollows in wood when making spoons, etc., without any worries. I love that. Since mine are coated blades, rust is not a concern.

Correcting my skid back onto the topic: INFI is still hard to beat for large chopping knives. I cut down a tree in my yard earlier this spring, and limbed and bucked it with 2 knives and a bow saw. The knives were a Busse BM-E and a CS Trailmaster. The tree was about 30 ft high, and 14 inches in diameter at the base. It was a lot of fun. Did you know that INFI makes a metallic musical note when you limb branches about an inch or two in diameter with one swing? I don't know where the BM - E is tuned, but I think it was around a C sharp.... When all was said and done, it just needed the sap cleaned off, still shaving sharp. No edge damage, and I was swinging pretty hard for more than a couple of hours...

 

[Peter La]

Whoa there young buck. I don't think any of us could say with any degree of certainty that this is a fact. Insinuating such is inflammatory and not on topic with this thread. I am as zealous as the next hog in defending my favorite brand, but there is no need for starting a fire. Peter, I am not scolding you, just tapping you on the shoulder and asking you to think a bit. I enjoy your youthful exuberance but sometimes it need taming.

Oh yeah, you can't go wrong with a Steel Heart of any variety. I agree that on a economic basis, you have a better chance if you buy Busse first, try it and if you decide you still want a Fehrman, you can easily sell the Busse off for darn near what you paid for it if it has had the snot beat out of it. Kind of like the best of both worlds.

I was out of line when I said that, I appologise.

Here is a good link: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=237397

 

[Solstice]

Just for clarification, S30V and 3V are two vastly different steels. S30V is a stainless and 3V is not. 3V has proven to be a very ductile steel as well, seeming to prefer to roll rather than chip. S30V isnt very fond of impact at all, but it holds an edge like nobodys business.

The steel that Fehrman uses is 3V

OOPS!


Thanks Leatherman! My mistake. I went to Fehrman's website and sure enough it's 3V. Not sure where I got sooo confused. Last night I checked out his website and it mentioned that the steel has a high Chromium content. Both of these steels have a high Chromium content and maybe that's where I got confused. Fact of the matter is, that until last night I'd never even heard of their knives. There's so many out there (knife manufacturers) that's it's hard to keep up with all of them. Guess that's a good thing for me at least. I have a hard enough time making decisions with the amount of info I have now. TMI can cloud my little head sometimes!

Stay Strong & No Regrets!

 

[greens]

I remember reading that post where Cliff tested the Fehrman blade. I think the edge chipped because it was very thin. If it was thicker, it may have just rolled, who knows. It's a great slicer considering it's huge size. Fehrman's edges are thinner than busses and I can tell you that 3V is very though but as with all knives, edge geometry can make or break any steel. So can heat treat.

 

[yoda4561]

Fairly sure it rippled, and he stopped because it would just get damaged further. I've got 1 knife made of 3v and my impressions of it are similar. The thin (zero ground) edge tends to ripple/roll very easily, it's pretty ductile, but doesn't seem all that resistant to damage.

 

[Cobalt]

Cobalt,

Quit teasing us and post a picture, would you?

QUOTE]


Don't you hate it when someone mentions a knife and never shows picks. I will take picks tomorrow and post them.

 

[crossada]

i have the fehrman hoodhunter 10 which is a big bowie survival knife. i have found 3v to be not as tough as infi but the hh10 is ground really thin at the edge so it could be from that.

fehrman's fit and finish is really top notch as that goes but what i don't like about the hh10 is the handle design with the finger choil. it feels ok with a saber grip but a hammer grip for chopping really sucks. also the full tang under the handle has been notched out for some reason and it throws the balance out of whack. i don't know if this is just on this knife or all fehrmans.

other than that it is a great knife and design. i would like to see more big and light weight survival knives like this coming out. very easy to carry all day.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I remember reading that post where Cliff tested the Fehrman blade. I think the edge chipped because it was very thin. If it was thicker, it may have just rolled, who knows.

The opposite happens actually, if you thin out an edge it will start to roll where before it will chip, steel becomes more flexible when thin. This is why a very thin blade can flex massively greater than a thick blade out of the same steel. Distal tapers enhance flexibility for this reason.

The edge on the Extreme Judgement rippled while batoning through a heavy knot, the damage went up into the primary grind. I stopped as the damage would have continued and then torn/cracked, the knife at this point was wrote off. Very light taps into concrete also caused the edge to chip readily, little to no deformation, just cracking.

Ed Schott by the way did the heat treating on his blades, 3V has a toughness peak at ~58 HRC, however many are going to 60 HRC, where it drops off a lot. Some makers have noted 3V is fairly weak at a high hardness, the edge tends to ripple in the same geometry as other steels will not. High vanadium steels tend to require high soak temps for optimal hardening, this may be an issue.

I still want to try a 3V custom from Phil Wilson at 58 HRC before I write the steel off.

-Cliff

 

[greens]

The opposite happens actually, if you thin out an edge it will start to roll where before it will chip, steel becomes more flexible when thin. This is why a very thin blade can flex massively greater than a thick blade out of the same steel. Distal tapers enhance flexibility for this reason.
-Cliff

In my experience, the thicker edges always held up better and took more abuse. I use my knives to cut alot of rope and chop, baton through many hardwoods. I like thicker edges on my busses for that purpose and I would never go any thinner for the things I do.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

In my experience, the thicker edges always held up better and took more abuse.

Yes, more steel allows the knife to take more abuse, however the nature of the limit behavior (chip or roll) is what was in question. Knives get more flexible with less stock, they of course get easier to bend as well.

-Cliff