Byrd V Spyderco

[PayetteRucker]

Now, I remember when Spyderco was a new up and coming company and sold for 30 dollars in walmart. I also remember shortly thereafter when they became very popular among my military buddies for being cheap, simple and effective for EDC on duty. I remember when their prices began to steadily rise because people realized they were worth more than they cost, and Spyderco realized this and in turn raised their prices. I've never been big on their designs, there are alot of folders I like better for the money, but I think they're starting to grow on me. What's changed, other than popularity, from when Spydercos costed 30 dollars and now where you can't find one under 100? And what is the difference between Spydercos and Byrds? I've never been a huge fan of stainless and don't know a whole lot about the differences between various Cr based steels, can anyone enlighten me why there is a 70 dollar price difference?

 

[Esav Benyamin]

The Byrds are Spyderco's budget made-in-China line. That also accounts for the Chinese-style steel designations.

Spydercos cost more for two main reasons: prices go up over time as a function of the general economy (inflation), and as the company became more popular, they expanded and gentrified their offerings. There are still several inexpensive, well-made Spydercos, though.

 

[Slidetechnik]

If you handle a high end Spyderco versus a Byrd, the differences are pretty apparent. The Byrds are good blades for the money, but they aren't nearly as well put together or nice as the high end spydercos.

 

[Quapaw]

Fit and finish on Spydercos is suburb. Byrds, while generally excellent knives, do not approach Spyderco's quality of manufacture.

In short, not just the steel used, but also attention to detail is the difference.

 

[lava_lamp]

If you PM or email me, I'll tell you where you can buy a new Spyderco Native for $38. Forums rules against "dealspotting" don't allow me to post it here. You can also find a Spyderco Tenacious all over for $35. They have a new model called the Persistance that is even less.

Now, I remember when Spyderco was a new up and coming company and sold for 30 dollars in walmart. I also remember shortly thereafter when they became very popular among my military buddies for being cheap, simple and effective for EDC on duty. I remember when their prices began to steadily rise because people realized they were worth more than they cost, and Spyderco realized this and in turn raised their prices. I've never been big on their designs, there are alot of folders I like better for the money, but I think they're starting to grow on me. What's changed, other than popularity, from when Spydercos costed 30 dollars and now where you can't find one under 100? And what is the difference between Spydercos and Byrds? I've never been a huge fan of stainless and don't know a whole lot about the differences between various Cr based steels, can anyone enlighten me why there is a 70 dollar price difference?

 

[Confederate]

People buy knives for a variety of reasons. Spydercos are exceptional knives and have a wide following in both the police and civilian circles. I have the Byrd Cara Cara with G10 handles and, for most people, this is as much of a knife as they'll ever need. My main gripe with Spyderco is that their blades tend to be on the smallish side and tend to a uniform look (while I like tantos and other styles). They also tend to sell for more $$$ than I'm normally willing to shell out, but that's just personal taste. Clearly, they're well made knives and are good investments. For people needing only a good EDC, however, the Byrds are more than adequate. If the Cara Cara was the only knife I could ever own, I could make do quite nicely.

For the money, I prefer other knives, though. The prices of the Spyderco have exceeded inflation by a significant degree, but most other knife companies also are raising their prices as well. If this economic depression continues, I don't see how the prices can continue to skyrocket.

 

[yablanowitz]

Now, I remember when Spyderco was a new up and coming company and sold for 30 dollars in walmart. I also remember shortly thereafter when they became very popular among my military buddies for being cheap, simple and effective for EDC on duty. I remember when their prices began to steadily rise because people realized they were worth more than they cost, and Spyderco realized this and in turn raised their prices. I've never been big on their designs, there are alot of folders I like better for the money, but I think they're starting to grow on me. What's changed, other than popularity, from when Spydercos costed 30 dollars and now where you can't find one under 100?

Early Spyderco knives were made in Japan with Gingami-1 steel for the blade and unchamferred stainless steel handles. While that GIN-1 steel is good stuff, it is not nearly as expensive to buy or work as the VG-10 they are using as their standard now. The exchange rate on Japan-made goods is not as much in our favor anymore, either. Even at that, most of their line has always been rather expensive compared to most brands. You must have quite a memory, the only Spyderco I've seen in Wal Mart was the FRN Native made specifically for that contract and intended to be entry level. Oh, and according to Sal Glesser (the owner of Spyderco) the company operates on fixed margins. If their price goes up, it is because their costs went up.

And what is the difference between Spydercos and Byrds? I've never been a huge fan of stainless and don't know a whole lot about the differences between various Cr based steels, can anyone enlighten me why there is a 70 dollar price difference?

The biggest reason is the exchange rate. Ten US dollars will buy the same amount of goods and services in China as fifty US dollars will buy here. The materials used in the Byrd knives are the best available in China, but China has not caught up with the advances made in the last fifty years. 8Cr13MoV is comparable in performance to AUS-8, which for some companies is top of the line steel. It's pretty much the bottom end for Spyderco.

 

[Dekz]

People buy knives for a variety of reasons. Spydercos are exceptional knives and have a wide following in both the police and civilian circles. I have the Byrd Cara Cara with G10 handles and, for most people, this is as much of a knife as they'll ever need. My main gripe with Spyderco is that their blades tend to be on the smallish side and tend to a uniform look (while I like tantos and other styles). They also tend to sell for more $$$ than I'm normally willing to shell out, but that's just personal taste. Clearly, they're well made knives and are good investments. For people needing only a good EDC, however, the Byrds are more than adequate. If the Cara Cara was the only knife I could ever own, I could make do quite nicely.

For the money, I prefer other knives, though. The prices of the Spyderco have exceeded inflation by a significant degree, but most other knife companies also are raising their prices as well. If this economic depression continues, I don't see how the prices can continue to skyrocket.

Agreed. Nothing against their knives at all, very high quality products, but IMO they are overpriced. Especially knives like the Lava and Poliwog (both of which I would LOVE to own), but I'm not willing to pay ~$100 for a 2 inch blade.

My personal experiences have also soured my opinion of them. I have a Spyderco "S", and a Byrd Meadowlark. The "S" has terrible blade play in both directions and won't take an edge no matter what I do, the Meadowlark is absolutely rock solid and came with an insane edge from the factory (that is easy to maintain).

So it's tough for me to shell out $100-120 for one of the Spydercos that I'm interested in (Lava/Poliwog/Sage/Bob Lum Chinese) when the only Spyderco I own, is the worst knife I own.

Again, from what I read on the forums, my experience is atypical, but that doesn't make me feel any better about the knife that sits on my desk

 

[Brutus013]

Agreed. Nothing against their knives at all, very high quality products, but IMO they are overpriced. Especially knives like the Lava and Poliwog (both of which I would LOVE to own), but I'm not willing to pay ~$100 for a 2 inch blade.

My personal experiences have also soured my opinion of them. I have a Spyderco "S", and a Byrd Meadowlark. The "S" has terrible blade play in both directions and won't take an edge no matter what I do, the Meadowlark is absolutely rock solid and came with an insane edge from the factory (that is easy to maintain).

So it's tough for me to shell out $100-120 for one of the Spydercos that I'm interested in (Lava/Poliwog/Sage/Bob Lum Chinese) when the only Spyderco I own, is the worst knife I own.

Again, from what I read on the forums, my experience is atypical, but that doesn't make me feel any better about the knife that sits on my desk

Send the knife back to Spyderco, it's obviously defective.

Also, if you're buying knives based on a blade lengthrice ratio, you might as well buy some cheap machetes.

 

[Dekz]

Also, if you're buying knives based on a blade lengthrice ratio, you might as well buy some cheap machetes.

It makes sense to you that the Lava costs as much as a Police?

 

[Brutus013]

It makes sense to you that the Lava costs as much as a Police?

The Police is $15 more, and it does indeed make sense to me that they cost the same. Spyderco isn't charging based on the material costs alone, they are charging based on how much the materials cost, how much it costs to machine the materials, and how much people are willing to pay for the knife. The lava is a more unique design than the police, and apparently people realize that because they're willing to pay almost the same for both knives.

Edit: Also, where are you getting $100 for the lava? The lava is around $75 according to a quick look I just had.

 

[jill jackson]

Retail on the standard Military models with S30V steel and G-10 is 219.95. The Lava retailed for 139.95 and you can get them as low as 70 dollars if you look. I've never seen any Military NIB priced under 110 and they are almost always 120 and up.
Spyderco still has many nice FRN models such as the Endura 4, that are a vast improvement from the first liner-less FRN models. They can be found for 50 dollars and up if you bother to look and that is not a lot of markup considering how long ago you could buy a FRN Spyderco for 35 dollars. (which had no liners and lesser steel) I had a original Endura my Dad bought me when they first started appearing at gun shows and I am amazed at how much more solid the new Endura 4 feels.

 

[Dekz]

Retail on the standard Military models with S30V steel and G-10 is 219.95. The Lava retailed for 139.95 and you can get them as low as 70 dollars if you look. I've never seen any Military NIB priced under 110 and they are almost always 120 and up.

I said Police, not Military.

The Police is $15 more, and it does indeed make sense to me that they cost the same. Spyderco isn't charging based on the material costs alone, they are charging based on how much the materials cost, how much it costs to machine the materials, and how much people are willing to pay for the knife. The lava is a more unique design than the police, and apparently people realize that because they're willing to pay almost the same for both knives.

Edit: Also, where are you getting $100 for the lava? The lava is around $75 according to a quick look I just had.

I just did some quick searching and on many online knife stores as well as Ebay, both knives were the same price. Although I will concede I did find them for as low as $70, but again, I found BOTH the Lava and the Police for $70.

I specifically chose the Police for this comparison because both knives use the EXACT same handle material, blade steel, and locking mechanism. Therefore the cost of knife production should be near identical, yet the Police is twice the knife by size and weight.

The argument that "the Lava costs more because people are willing to pay more" is weak at best, if not completely invalidated by what started this discussion in the first place; I am NOT willing to pay more.

I do not shop for knives based on a price:size ratio, but in this case they seem to be charging what they are for the Lava, as you said yourself, because they can. And that certainly sours my opinion of them :grumpy:

 

[Brutus013]

I said Police, not Military.



I just did some quick searching and on many online knife stores as well as Ebay, both knives were the same price. Although I will concede I did find them for as low as $70, but again, I found BOTH the Lava and the Police for $70.

I specifically chose the Police for this comparison because both knives use the EXACT same handle material, blade steel, and locking mechanism. Therefore the cost of knife production should be near identical, yet the Police is twice the knife by size and weight.

The argument that "the Lava costs more because people are willing to pay more" is weak at best, if not completely invalidated by what started this discussion in the first place; I am NOT willing to pay more.

I do not shop for knives based on a price:size ratio, but in this case they seem to be charging what they are for the Lava, as you said yourself, because they can. And that certainly sours my opinion of them :grumpy:

I'm not sure you're understanding the situation. They charge that price because people are willing to spend that amount of money. You might not be, but others, MANY others obviously are. The only reason they can charge that much (hint: this applies to every single knife on the market) is because people buy it. If a knife is too expensive to sell, the price will fall. If people (as a whole) thought the lava was too expensive, it wouldn't sell well and Spyderco would lower the price. As far as charging what they do "because they can," that applies to every single product on the market; companies charge what people are willing to pay. You might think it's a weak argument, but it's something that is 100% true.

 

[Dekz]

I'm not sure you're understanding the situation. They charge that price because people are willing to spend that amount of money. You might not be, but others, MANY others obviously are. The only reason they can charge that much (hint: this applies to every single knife on the market) is because people buy it. If a knife is too expensive to sell, the price will fall. If people (as a whole) thought the lava was too expensive, it wouldn't sell well and Spyderco would lower the price. As far as charging what they do "because they can," that applies to every single product on the market; companies charge what people are willing to pay. You might think it's a weak argument, but it's something that is 100% true.

Well the Lava has been discontinued, so I guess that shows pretty clearly how many people were willing to pay the asking price.

 

[jill jackson]

I said Police, not Military.



I just did some quick searching and on many online knife stores as well as Ebay, both knives were the same price. Although I will concede I did find them for as low as $70, but again, I found BOTH the Lava and the Police for $70.

I specifically chose the Police for this comparison because both knives use the EXACT same handle material, blade steel, and locking mechanism. Therefore the cost of knife production should be near identical, yet the Police is twice the knife by size and weight.

The argument that "the Lava costs more because people are willing to pay more" is weak at best, if not completely invalidated by what started this discussion in the first place; I am NOT willing to pay more.

I do not shop for knives based on a price:size ratio, but in this case they seem to be charging what they are for the Lava, as you said yourself, because they can. And that certainly sours my opinion of them :grumpy:

In my defense I had just gotten up and was a bit sleepy, so I carried over "Military" from hearing it so much yesterday!
Police is 164.95 retail, the Lava 139.95.
Maybe you can find a SS Police once in awhile as cheap as the discounted Lava price. Most generally you won't.
Sypderco has no control over what their knives sell for after they are in dealers hands. Benchmade has tried to implement strict price control and it's made them very unpopular.
If you bought the Police SS and the Lava before it was discontinued, from Spyderco you would have paid 25.00 dollars more for the Police. (as it is now the Lava is being closed out at Spyderco for around 85)
Maybe the Police being it's been in production for years has it's tooling and molds paid for and can be sold a bit cheaper in comparison. As it is the Lava is on it's way out and the Police is still going strong.

 

[marthinus]

Well the Lava has been discontinued, so I guess that shows pretty clearly how many people were willing to pay the asking price.

Spyderco discontinue many of their favorite knives. They are a small company compared to others so they keep their newest products in stock and slowly discontinue their older stock.

Back on topic. If you like a knife buy it. If you do not have the money. Save till you can buy it. My old kershaw 1044 for eg. I bought for $20 retail. Now its $47. It is one of my oldest knives. So the price does go up with time. Its always been that way. My Grandfather worked for 2 pounds and 6 chillings a month. You cant buy a weeks groceries with that today.

 

[Dekz]

Police is 164.95 retail, the Lava 139.95. Sypderco has no control over what their knives sell for after they are in dealers hands.

This is a good point, since it is Spyderco (and not dealers) that my beef is with, it is fair to look at MSRP. However this just caused me to research the Endura (again, identical handle material, blade steel, and lock) which again is twice as big as the Lava and has an MSRP of $114.95.

Maybe the Police being it's been in production for years has it's tooling and molds paid for and can be sold a bit cheaper in comparison. As it is the Lava is on it's way out and the Police is still going strong.

Another good point. Now especially in the case of the Endura, I know that the economies of scale are a factor. But then I would argue that the Lava would have been an INSANELY popular knife had it been priced at an MSRP more in line with its size.

Unfortunately with it being discontinued, prices are probably only going to go up. Oh well, I guess it wasn't meant to be.

Spyderco discontinue many of their favorite knives. They are a small company compared to others so they keep their newest products in stock and slowly discontinue their older stock.

It appears to me that the exact opposite is true. Just from my research tonight I learned that the Police was introduced in 1984. I'm certainly no Spyderco history buff but I would imagine the Delica and Endura have been around even longer?

 

[Dagon]

Back to the original question:

I have a few Byrds and a number of Spydercos.

The Byrds are made to a good standard in China, and at the price they offer great value.
Spydercos are on the whole more precisely made with better steel, hence the higher price. The Tenacious and Persistance are a bit the odd ones, as they are made in China at slightly higher than Byrd prices but sold as "true" Spdercos, and I'd say quite similar quality as Byrds.
Most Spydercos are not cheap, that is true, but I do think most offer a decent quality/price ratio. Some like the Manix 2 are actually very good for the price. All in all I don't think that Spyderco offers a worse quality/price than the similarly costing Benchmades, for example.
It must be said that for occasional non-knife-maniac users, a Byrd Cara-Cara will be just as useful as its more refined, more expensive Spyderco brother which is the Endura. The G10 Cara Cara is actually in my opinion quite a great deal, perhaps even more so than the Tenacious.

 

[jill jackson]

All you can do is buy the models that you feel are the best value.
I imagine the labor to produce a Lava and a SS Police is pretty close to the same.
That would figure into a lot of the production cost.