C69 - new "wonder" steel in WIRED magazine

Russ Kay

Russ Kay

Joined
Dec 19, 2000
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186
In the Feb 2001 WIRED, there's a rather weird article, "Forging the Dragonslayer" by Erik Davis, about a company (QuesTek) that's created a new steel alloy/heat treatment regimen that's supposed to be really special. Tip/edge hardness at Rockwell C69, tested by driving it slowly into a commercial Japanese (MAC) hunting knife.

Anyway, they claim to be able to test the cutting properties on a computer, and they're going to make the world's greatest broadsword out of it. and ...

I don't know whether it's the author or the company, but my BS detector seems to be nearly off-scale when I read this. The article shows a blade being forged by a Michigan smith, Richard Furrer.

Anyway, I don't really know all that much about steel metallurgy other than what I've picked up in several years of knife collecting. So I don't know whether this makes sense or not. I'd appreciate hearing what others, especially bladesmiths and knife designers, have to say about this.

The one thing that really gives me pause is that the article quotes Kevin Cashen, another Michigan bladesmith who knows his way around steel and swords, and he seems enthusiastic about it. I know Kevin, and I trust him, and so maybe there is something to this stuff after all.
 
Will the blade steel chip, or flex at the edge. I'm sure a bladesmith could get a hardness of RC69, but I imagine it would chip. No telling.


Blades
 
Maybe they should verify what they claim with factual metallurgical testing results, like impact toughnese, tensile strength, steel composition, etc . That would provide a firmer ground for believing. Just my personnal opinion.
 
Your BS detector is working! Steel development is a cook book art and I know of no computer programs that allow determination of met properties! I will look at this article and report back.
 
They did show a test in which the knives where fixed into a mechanical test frame and then brought to bear on each other edge-to-edge at a 90 degree angle. The Japanese hunting knife got gashed.

But Greg Olson cheated! He had the Furrer knife case hardened! I wonder how many resharpenings before you get below the advertised RC69?

The rest of the article was rather embarassing for me to read personally as a materials scientist. I agree with his comment that taking a cold eye as a scientist can be difficult, but this why finding outside interests in art or in life in general is so important. I find his quest for "spiritual materials" to be silly. Real "spirit" in a material comes from the effort put into it by a craftsman in my view.

Bud: QuesTek does have some interesting abilities to tailor steel compositions for better performance. The Dragonslayer sword is more an attention getter for them (hmmm looking to branch out into sporting goods, eh?).

However their thunder has been stolen in one of the prize apps. I posted recently in the shop talk forum about a new alloy called Cronidur 30 made in Germany for bearings in the Space Shuttle main engine. I believe this has displaced a modified 440C alloy developed by QuesTek.

Here's that thread http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/002203.html

Grant
 
69 Rc is very much possible, I have some alloy that they reccomend the using hardness at 69 Rc. However as has been mentioned, it is brittle, wish it wasnt!
 
I read the Wired article and as a Nuclear Engineer with graduate work in materials, I have some credentials. In order to keep control of the knifemaking process the heat treat/temper would have to be controlled and reproducable. I find no evidence in the article of that. The stuff about the Dragon slayer is pure B.S.! I would put all of the article in the category of Voodoo Science. People want to believe and thier are lot's P.T. Barnums about. I am going to research credentials and have a conversation with the smith and will report back the results.
 
Bud,

Greg Olson is highly respected in the field. Purveyors of junk science normally don't get tenured positions at Northwestern.

Remember, this is a puff piece for the fluffy-headed dot com economy types. That they even ran an article like this seems to me to indicate that with the recent, ahem, *correction*, that their editors were looking wider afield for stories devoid of dot com casualties.

I think Greg's ulterior motive here is to drum up a little PR for QuesTek. And as I forsaw reading the article, I recognized that he would be in danger of being seen as a crank by someone who is not familar with his work.

The article fails to give much space at all to the serious work he and QuesTek have done. Programs like ThermoCalc and models of how mechicanal behavior is effected by the distribution of microstructural constituents have allowed him and his group to refine "cookbook" steel compositions in a directed manner. It should be emphasized that our ability to design alloys for properties in the computer is still at an extremely rudimentary phase.

I've come to his defense here a bit. Yes, he has had some dealings with my former thesis advisor. I'll again say though his featured knife (let alone the sword) aren't the best examples of where materials science can take the knife community. Talonite and zirconia serve as better examples.

Grant
 
I read the website as designed to sell stock to investment banker types who wouldn't understand the science anyway. Personally, I find the whole idea of attacking the basic chemistry of steel to achieve new purposes to be pretty exciting.

What about Zirconia?

------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The New Tom & Jerry Show
 
I viewed the website and researched Greg Olson's credentials and find that he is a professor at Northwestern University on the Material Science faculty. The Questek website is somewhat informative and it seems that Questek gave Furrer a chunck of Ferium C69 and he did in fact make a blade. I am going to contact Furrer and find out what is instructions were from Questek about heat treat and how he controlled and monitored the treatment. It appears that there is substance to the fluff in the wired article. The Dragonslayer idea really dilutes the technical merits of Questek. I will report after I talk with Furrer.
 
You know I'm feeling rather stupid here. It never occured to me that QuesTek would have a web site with potentially enlightening information. *smacks head*

Well I got over there and downloaded the pdf file for Ferrium C69.

This is the composition:

Co 27.8-28.2
Ni 2.9-3.1
Cr 5.0-5.2
Mo 2.4-2.6
V 0.015-0.025
C 0.09-0.11

This is not a true stainless steel. It's rust resistance should be on par with D2.

The pdf shows a hardness profile after case hardening. At 0.5 mm it is about 950 HV (C68). At 1 mm it is 850 HV (C66). At 2mm it is 740 HV (C62).

Jerry: zirconia is zirconium oxide ceramic. Kyocera in Japan has been making kitchen knives from it since the late 80's. Gourmets like it because it leaves no metallic taste in the food. Just don't drop 'em.
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Darn, I thought you were going to tell me about some fabulous zirconium carbide or zirconium nitride steel.
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Rc62 at 2mm is pretty good. You'd have to sharpen away a lot of steel before you got down to that. That would cover the bottom 1/4" or more of the edge on most of my blades.

The softer inner material gives some hope for reasonable toughness as well, but the blade test they did using the Japanese blade is not very informative. Most edge chipping is the result of some lateral force.

It will be interesting to hear about the heat treating.

------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The New Tom & Jerry Show
 
Ah Jerry's crestfallen... so sorry.
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Zirconium is really reactive. Really really reactive. To add it to a steel melt without it oxidizing you'd have to do it in vacuum (VIM = vacuum induction melting). I don't think it would give you much gain over vanadium.

I neglected to add additional info from the pdf on Ferrium C69 regarding heat treatment. Here it goes:

"...Once the approximate geometry has been achieved, Ferrium C69 can be plasma or gas carburized (gas carburizing requires a pre-oxidation treatment) by a typical boost and diffuse cycle. A solution treatment, gas cool, and 575 F temper provide a 60 HRC case for finish grinding if needed. In this condition, grindability is similar to conventional carburized steels such as AISI 8620 and 9310. A final temper at 900 F produces the ultra-hard 69 HRC wear resistant surface and tough core with minimal distortion. If needed, nitriding can also be completed during the tempering to increase surface hardness beyond 69 HRC. Final shot peening is recommended."

You knew that C had to be added back in somehow.
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Having an additional thought here... that hardness profile may have been from a large block or a round bearing. If you grind the edge in and then have it carburized the geometry will allow for greater case depth about the edge, exactly where you want it. With two free surfaces in close proximity it allows you to get carbon in from both sides.
 
This might be pushing it, but who does plasma or gas carburization treatment? Also, there seems to be an assumption that nobody will want to work the steel at Rc69. That would seem to be the reason for the 575 degree, intermediate temper at Rc60 as a waystation. Having ground on TiN and TiO, which are harder, the idea of sharpening a blade at Rc69 doen't sound that daunting. Am I missing something?

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The New Tom & Jerry Show
 
My guess is that most people in a mass production setting would rather not deal with grinding the stuff full hard.

My question for you, Jerry: why not just sharpen it before the carburization and temper?
 
Jerry, depends on the alloy if 69 Rc is what your grinding. The stuff I am testing is the hardest stuff I have ever worked period in the annealed state at 56 or so RC. After heat treatment to 69Rc, forget grinding it and get out the diamonds!
 
Rob, the blade would be pretty much sharpened before hardening. What I would like to do is that last little bit of edge refinement and polishing on the fully finished blade. With the excellent wear resistance you should get at Rc69, it seems to me you could use a slightly larger bevel angle and create a very strong, yet sharp sharp edge. Obviously, you'd give back a little of the wear resistance, since it would dull faster than with a finer edge, but you would gain a lot on edge toughness. Basically a balancing act to try to draw out all that the steel might have to give.

I know it's a little counter-intuitive, but does that make sense?

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The New Tom & Jerry Show
 
Jerry,

I just sent you an e-mail regarding carburization but it got bounced back to me. Let me know if you get it or not.
 
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