California, Knife Forges?

ron_m80

ron_m80

Tempered Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
8,155
I am sort of familiar with california's requirements on gas burning apliances. And the rules are generally tough, though they are based on the BTU rating of the appliance. Just because you can draw propane from a tank, and make the forge hot doesn't make it legal in CA. You need to register the appliance and depending on the rating conform to combustion by-product tests in the flue, is this common elsewhere as well?

So for those of you that purchased a forge that had the fuel manifold installed from the factory, what is the BTU input rating of your furnace, and the size of the chamber? I am looking for some numbers to give me an idea what it would cost to run one in CA.
 
the definition of appliance and the legal definition of appliance are not one and the same.
Most of the legal restrictions are home code issues, or import issues. When the devise in not installed in a home there is not much restriction on how many BTU's you can crank.


This is not my area of specialty BUT I have looked in to it a few times. Seems as long as you don't put the forge in the living room your mostly OK.
 
The regs in California will change depending on where you are located, I believe for combustion equipment the Los Angeles Region is among the most stringent.

Rule 219 Equipment not requireing a permit exempts combustion devices less than 2,000,000 btu/hr. I believe this is much greater than any non-commercial forge
 
Seems like to me it would be easier to move than keep up with all the regulations that state has.
 
Years ago I thought that was nothing that would get me out of california, but the regs just might do it. Seems we never have enough, always passing more.
 
If it keeps going the way that it is going all the regs will not make a difference because there will be no one to enforce them when the state goes bankrupt. Is the weather really that good? :)
 
Hmathews said:
Seems like to me it would be easier to move than keep up with all the regulations that state has.
Click to expand...

The only thing stopping me is this great job. If it weren not for that single fact, I would have left long ago.
 
Patrickknives said:
The regs in California will change depending on where you are located, I believe for combustion equipment the Los Angeles Region is among the most stringent.

Rule 219 Equipment not requireing a permit exempts combustion devices less than 2,000,000 btu/hr. I believe this is much greater than any non-commercial forge
Click to expand...

yes you'reb correct there. but there are still stringent regs on appliances i would like to verify the reg's before i invest in something i can't use. There is a coffee roaster very close to my house, an imigrant guy, he about died when he found out all the crap he had to test and measure before they would let him roast beans, unbelieveable.

Some nieghbors are those commie (not mine) association dorks that like to meddle in other peoples lives for some reason. and i can just imagine what they would do when they see those forge heat plumes rising out of the backyard. :( bad californians.
 
For everyone's benefit. Other than installed (grandfathered) boilers at 2Mbtu. Everything from road asphault roasters to Gas furnaces have a specific rating that must be met.
Some of the things AQMD regulates in California
I do understand i will likely get away with kiln/ forge operations in my back-yard, but i like to know stuff for certain, its a bad habit.
 
The only thing stopping me is this great job. If it weren not for that single fact, I would have left long ago.
Click to expand...

I heard that! I guess if all the normal people left, what we would have would probably be much worse than what is there now. Last time I was in SF it really got shook up. Haven't been back. I figure Georgia is close enough and we have more regulations than I want.
 
A lot of these rules and regs apply to business. If you are a hobbiest the rules are way different.
 
Most propane gas forges run somewhere between 20,000 BTU and 50,000 BTU. Around 30,000-35,000 BTU is a good average - roughly the same as a gas grill. Forges don't generate a lot of heat, they retain and concentrate it. The exhaust gases are low in pollutants, containing mostly water vapor ,CO, and CO2.

For those who want to know, propane contains 9000 BTU per pound, so a 20 pound tank can deliver 180,000 BTU. If it will run the forge for eight hours ( just a figurative number), that would be developing 22,5000 BTU/Hr.

Stacy
 
I took a little time and actually found the reg that applies to knifemaking. AQMD draws no line on commercial or residential use, emissions are emmisions. So anyway here is.

(e) Glass, Ceramic, Metallurgical Processing and Fabrication Equipment
(1) Crucible-type or pot-type furnaces with a brimful capacity of less than
7400 cubic centimeters (452 cubic inches) of any molten metal and control
equipment exclusively venting the equipment.
(2) Crucible furnaces, pot furnaces or induction furnaces with a capacity of
450 kilograms (992 pounds) or less each, where no sweating or distilling
is conducted and where only the following materials are poured or held in
..........
Provided these materials do not contain alloying elements of arsenic,
beryllium, cadmium, chromium and/or lead and such furnaces are exempt
pursuant to paragraph (b)(2).

And Paragraph (b)(2), simply references what was already mentioned, The 2Mbtu limit on any installed combustion burner or boiler. Which requires permit and anual source testing of the combustion controls.

I think the hobbiest is safe, as most of you already said.

AQMD Regulations Link, for reference, Page 6
 
bladsmth said:
Most propane gas forges run somewhere between 20,000 BTU and 50,000 BTU. Around 30,000-35,000 BTU is a good average - roughly the same as a gas grill. Forges don't generate a lot of heat, they retain and concentrate it. The exhaust gases are low in pollutants, containing mostly water vapor ,CO, and CO2.

For those who want to know, propane contains 9000 BTU per pound, so a 20 pound tank can deliver 180,000 BTU. If it will run the forge for eight hours ( just a figurative number), that would be developing 22,5000 BTU/Hr.

Stacy
Click to expand...

Thank you Stacy, That was informative.

I'm sure I have the answer I wanted. Hey it wasn 't a complete waste of time, at least everyone with a forge can burn with confidence knowing AQMD isn't looking for you.

But just to say, on equipment that qualifies for testing and regulating, they want to know and have tested.....
SOx (oxides of sulfur), NOx (oxides of Nitrogen), CO, O2, and discharge temp. All of which have there own levels required, and in order to achieve this in most burner arrangements a flue gas recirculation line needs to be installed with an additional fan to return flue gases for combustion again. It functions much the same way the EGR valve on a car works.
 
Last edited:
This applies to the Quote under my signature.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top