California law and khuks

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I did some research yesterday about the meaning of "dirk or dagger" as defined by California Penal Code section 12020. The full thread is over on the Caracci forum in Tactics and Training.

In short, it looks like one may be able to make the argument that, since the khuk has characteristics that limit its effectiveness as a stabbing instrument (i.e. curved spine), and since it is designed for chopping, as opposed to stabbing, the khuk should not be deemed to be a "dirk or dagger" under CA law. I have not read through all the cases yet, but so far I have not come across any that specifically discuss a khuk.

Based on my reading so far, it looks like it might be possible to carry a khuk concealed without violating CA law. It makes me want to buy a 12" khuk.
 
AD,

My .02 is that you are trying to thread too fine a line. Your best course of action would be to review recent cases within your jusrisdiction (cases that are still relevant as a precedent) and identify knives that have been definitively deemed to be non-dirk and non-dagger. If you are going to carry you would be better served and less at risk if you select from one of these. Especially if the knife has come up for review repeatedly.

n2s
 
I agree. I am walking a fine line here. One would be much safer merely packing a folder. I just thought it interesting that there is a very good chance that a khuk may be off the hook. I guess it depends on the lawyers and judge involved, as well as whether or not the offender had any priors.
 
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If you run through the archives for California references in the knife laws section, you will soon see that your outcome may depend on the courtroom janitor's breakfast menu. The laws are fairly clear, but their interpretation out there is a nightmare, and the enforcement is just about as shabby. The only place you might be considered legal carrying a khuk is in a camping area (maybe not even the woods around it), or on some but not all hiking trails. For concealed carry of a Khukuri, come on out to Kentucky, with Patrick and me, get a permit, and carry any damn thing you can conceal :D
 
I am sick of the laws as well. The lawmakers don't even know how to interpret their own laws, and the results cover the full spectrum depending on the lawyers and/or the judge.

Not to mention the hypocricy of the lawmakers. For example, Diane Feinstein is totally anti-gun, yet she has a concealed carry permit and no doubt goes with an armed bodyguard everywhere. It's just flat out bull$hit.

What a lot of people don't realize is that the police do not have a duty to protect the citizens. For example, if I dial 911 and request help, if the police go to the wrong house or fail to respond completely, they can not be held liable!!!

Several years ago my grandpa received a death threat from an indivual to whom he had previously sold a handgun. This individual called him and told him he was on his way over to the house to kill him with the gun he sold him. My grandpa armed himself and called the police. The police never responded. 26 hours later, the police called his house to see if everything was all right. Fortunatley, the would-be assailant never came over.

The bottom line is, when it comes to self preservation, the only person you can rely on is yourself. I'll be damned if anyone is going to tell me I cannot arm myself. It is, truly, my second amendment right, and the Diane Feinsteins of this world can go straight to hell.
 
You're right. The first line of defense is always you.

And I wonder how many of the anti smokers are willing to quit driving and flying to help clean up the air.
 
AD, you hit the nail square on the head. I have downloaded and printed some of the very things that you touched on and most "sheepeople" just don't want to belive it.
I'm in the firearms manufacturing business and you should hear some of the double talk and vage answers that I get. Sometimes I feel they are trying set me up.
Yep Big Brother IS takeing care of us.


When in doubt empty your mag, reload, then turn the dogs loose.:eek: :)
 
I still think that a firearms course should be required in high school. Field stripping, cleaning, and accruately placeing shots with whatever is current military issue.

Then at truely have "the right to bear arms" anytime, anyplace.
With one exception... aircraft. Decompression is not funny at 40,000 feet, and I am not talking about bathroom humor.

If everyone is armed there wouldent be problems. And if there was a problem the natives in the surrounding country side would get restless and things would get fixed in a hurry.
 
There use to be a civilian government sponcered shooting origination call DCM(Division of Civilian Marksmanship) which would allow you to purchace M1 rifles at a very good price, but only after you attended a couple of matches and had some formal training, and I have been reading they are trying to shut it down. Now I hear that schools that had shooting teams are being forced to shut them down and even the ROTC groups are getting flack about their firearms training and shooting matches. My brother who has been in the Air Force for almost 20 years has only fired a rifle twice, I guess being from the country and learning to shoot at a early age, he scored to high and the service thought it would be a waste of money for him to fire a weapon because he shot well enough 20 years ago. Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of my statements as I only repeat what I read.
I sell firearms as a business and belive in background checks, not so the police can harass the honest law abiding buyer, but to help keep crimenals and mentaly handy caped from getting them. Those states that have a concealed carry law, I'm happy for you, because the statistics have shown crime has droped in your areas, because you're armed, and you have been trained and schooled befor getting these permits,and the criminal dosen't know who's packing and who isn't.
I've been on my soap box long enough and will end with one of my more favorite quotes:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."


Benjamin Franklin Nov. 11, 1755
 
Although I don't think you're in much danger of having a khukuri classified as a dirk or dagger I would still not carry it concealed. Carrying a fixed blade of any size concealed is a crime in California, while it is legal to carry a folder of any size, concealed or openly. So while it is alright to carry around a REKAT Sifu with its 5.45" blade it is illegal to carry around a 2" neck knife.
 
Based on my reading, carrying a fixed blade is not always illegal. For example, in one of the cases, a guy packing a bread knife (with dull tip and seraded edge) was let off the hook because the knife did not have stabbing capability and was not deemed to be a dirk or dagger. Ready stabbing capability seems to be the key here. It sounds as if someone could walk around town carrying a concealed meat cleaver and not be on the hook, due to its total lack of stabbing capability. I will look further into this issue, but so far this appears to be the case.
 
Jim March would probably know if he has time to answer any questions. Jim's usually pretty good about answering though no matter how busy he is.
Jim's a moderator I think in the community or political forums.

I was under the impression you can carry any size fixed blade in California as long as it was carried openly? It seems that openly meant it had to have so much of a precentage of the knife visible?
Seems like Jim has one hellacios knife he carries a lot.
Jim's also the proud owner of a couple of H.I.Products too IIRC.:)
 
Jim owns the first HI katana that was made under my personal supervision. I wonder if he carries it in CA?
 
You can carry a fixed bladed knife if it's out in the open.

My reading of Penal Code section 12020 is based on my concern for concealed carry. The code defines a series of weapons that are off-limits for concealed carry, one of which is the "dirk or dagger" (i.e. the governments definition of knife). When I looked through the annotated code, several cases popped up that discuss what the definition of dirk or dagger is. I have not read through all the cases yet, but plan to.

The main two criteria for the knife to be defined as dirk or dagger are that the knife must be ready to use (i.e. fixed blade aas opposed to folder) and that the knife must be be fitted primarily for stabbing.

Again, I am walking a fine line as to khuks. Although capable of stabbing, they are inherently designed as choppers, not stabbers. Also, one of the cases I saw, but have not read through yet, (People v. Rubalcava (1999) 87 Cal. Rptr. 2d 13) discussed the fact that, if the weapon has characteristics that limit its effectiveness as a stabbing instrument, then it is not to be defined as a dirk or dagger. Now, I do not yet know whether or not this language was in the holding of the case or merely dicta.

Frankly, I think I could get away with the argument that a khuk is not a dirk or dagger and I think I could sell this concept to judge and jury. Another case I saw (which I have not read yet) indicated that a hunting knife is not a dirk or dagger (In re George (1998) 80 Cal. Rptr. 2d 868).

In the near future I will copy all these case and read them through.
 
When I lived in Los Angeles in 1990 I tried to research the applicable weapons statutes so I could be an armed, law-abiding citizen. It is impossible. Not only do you have the state laws to contend with, you also have a crazy quilt of city and county ordinances and regulations to deal with. You could drive a half mile down the street and be in violation of a law you knew nothing about. On top of that, there is a wide degree of interpetation via 'officer discretion'.
I ended up carrying a 10 gauge double barrel shotgun with 18in barrels wrapped up in an old army trench coat in the back seat of my Datsun B210:eek:. It was kept loaded with #2 magnum buckshot and was a passable imitation of a shoulder fired claymore mine. When you are a poverty stricken hillbilly in the big city you end up living in some bad neighborhoods. I figured if it was impossible to carry legally then you might as well carry serious artillery.
Thank God we moved out of there just before the Rodney King riots or I would probably be in a California prison for trying to defend myself and my wife.
I must respectfully submit that the best way to deal with California weapon laws is to leave the state and never go back.It worked forme:p

NC is a pretty good state in regard to weapon laws but I do look forward to Kentucky :D

Patrick
 
Not strictly on topic but the last comments regarding the shotgun reminded me of something funny.

Over 20 years ago, the old man used to make a living of sorts driving cars back and forwards to auctions. One night he had been supposed to drive a car some distance away but it was cancelled at the last minute.

Around midnight someone tries to crowbar the back door off its hinges, thinking there was only my mother and two kids inside. She woke up with the noise and sent the old man down to investigate.

Down the stairs he goes, butt naked except for a 12 bore Greener shotgun and two cartridges. He switched on the kitchen light, broke the action and loaded up before going outside to investigate.

Upon opening the door and looking outside he found no one out there. The only evidence that there had been was the gouge marks on the door and a large hole in the hedge where the unbidden visitor had vacated rather quickly ;)

Not having a Greener myself ( lovely guns-see the John Wayne film 'Big Jake'-but I wont have one and give the police carte blache to enter my home ), my AK would no doubt put off any unwelcome visitors.

I'm sure if I was in the buff that would help all the more.:eek:
 
Ad, I don't know California concealed carry law. Here's my only contribution to this thread. A few months ago, an LEO was STABBED to death on his chest by a psyco. It was a story in other country than yours, but the blade shape is the same.

Take care!
 
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