Calling Joe Talmadge

[daberti]

Thanks Joe

STR: was your reply meant for me?Just asking.

 

[STR]

No not at all. I'm really just venting steam. The two guys that started these threads in public forums directed at just one individual are primarily who I was speaking to. I just didn't look back to get their screen names before posting. My bad there.

I think if someone wants a response from just Cliff or just Joe or just me for that matter that when their emails and contact info is readily available it should be used. Contact them individually and ask them your question don't ask it in a public forum and then complain because it went sour. Why the public forum for just one guy? The whole premise is wrong from the start. It gets replies but more non knife related than anything else and just causes bad feelings. Just like my posts. Neither of which should have to be said but neither of them are about knives either which again is counter to the forum.

I know what you think though, I could reply to the question but it wasn't asked of me so I won't.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Addressing it to just one guy is counter to the purpose of the forums.

The purpose of the forums is supposed to be discussing knives not people. There is nothing wrong with asking someone a specific question. Now preventing other people from responding and viewing would be against the purpose of the forum.

Why not ask him the same question in an email since he is the only one you wanted input from and then you wouldn't have to worry about it at all?

I encourage people to ask me questions like this in public for many reasons :

1) It makes me responsible for what I say. In general if you are not willing to state something in public and be responsible for it I have little interest in hearing it. This is in regards to the subject of performance of knives of course, not everything is a matter of public record. I hear all kinds of rumors and "facts" in email, I don't pay much attention to any of them because when people are not accountable then a lot of them are willing to say anything.

2) It opens the subject up for corrections, so people can point out other possible knives which would be better, or question the logic/facts behind the reasoning. I severely doubt gbaker would object to replies which were actually on topic. If I ask Hob about waterstones and someone replies with an informative post I can guarantee that neither I nor Hob will be upset, in fact both will appreciate the information.

3) It reduces the number of repeated and often very similar questions.

4) The information is public and available to anyone. This is supposed to be the purpose of the forum, it was when Turber started it anyway.

For example lets say you asked a dozen makers who were very experienced with a certain steel specific questions. You mainly wanted very specific opinions for any number of reasons (statements they made, reputation, performance you have seen, etc.). If you ask these questions in email the information is only avilable to you. If you ask them in public, then everyone can benefit from the replies and it opens up the possibity of debate and other makers can come in and it could branch off discussions on heat treating, geometry, etc. .

Cliff

 

[gbaker]

I think the general forum and blade forums as a whole are for the masses. The only problem I have with the other thread you started titled, 'Calling Cliff Stamp" or this one is that you don't normally post a question to an individual on a public forum that is for everyone. You do that in a private message on a one on one basis.

If it is posted here openly then it should be addressed to everyone that has access to the question just out of common decency IMO. Addressing it to just one guy is counter to the purpose of the forums. I'm surprised you have so many replies from people when it wasn't asked of them. Until I read about the controversy in the first calling Cliff thread in your first post I never even opened it up to look at that thread because it was not something inviting anyone but Cliff to respond.

So, in answer to the concern of it being turned into a get down on Cliff hour I would say you set him up for that. Why not ask him the same question in an email since he is the only one you wanted input from and then you wouldn't have to worry about it at all?

STR

Str, you make a valid point, but as a defense I offer the following:

1) As opposed to simply compiling a list, which any idiot can do, Cliff wrote a fairly detailed response for each selection. I found this an interesting read and suspected others would as well.

2) I consider Cliff and Joe to be experts based upon their passion and actions in the knife world. Also the fact that I, finally, can actually sharpen my knives comes in large part from their advice gives them expert status in my view. Others seem to disagree. Personally I think a similar thread posted by Joe directed to various “experts” periodically would be fascinating.

3) One of the complaints in the “Calling Cliff Stamp” thread was that other people’s views/comments were valid as well. I agreed so I started one.

Sorry for any offense. I would agree with you if say somebody started a “calling gbaker” thread. FWIW I don’t intend to start another one.

 

[STR]

Thats fine Cliff. I just vented because it irritated me that no one elses opinion matters but those from you or Joe. With 55,000 plus members there is a wealth of information here many times greater than the two of you can provide by your lonesome.

I see no big conspiracy for hiding or betraying of information from our members here. I do feel if a question needs to be asked of an individual that asking him privately is the usual course of action though. Excluding the others from being sought for a reply was my main issue here and why it irritated me.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Thats fine Cliff. I just vented because it irritated me that no one elses opinion matters but those from you or Joe.

Then you have a personal problem that needs to be addressed because no one stated that, you are just infering it and it reflects on you and not the poster. If you want people to respect what you have to say then actually talk about knives. It isn't like Joe came on here yesterday, he has been posting for well over ten years, wrote the FAQ's, and has examined many high end knives in detail comparing them to each other. That kind of thing tends to make people respect his opinion. That and the fact he actually talks about knives on a knife discussion board and doesn't spend the majority of his time on personal and META discussions. The reality is that very frequently when people ask me questions in email I refer them to other people who have more experience than me, Joe and Steve for folders, HoB for stones, Jim Aston for axes (way more brands), etc. . This is kind of thing that is immediately available in public and would be easily accessable if people didn't have insecurity issues and just talked about knives.

-Cliff

 

[Shann]

I think its fine to ask questions of specific people, intending of course to begin a debate of what they said. I could email someone a question, but then I don't get debate. I don't think anyone is left out or slighted in that scenario.

I don't even really care when people "blast" what Cliff or Joe or anybody else has to say, but of course people with an axe to grind can't just say it once, they have to keep at it, so EVERYBODY KNOWS THEIR OPINION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOURS.

If you ask an open ended "whats best" question people jump on you for asking a dumb question. If you ask a specific person a question, they jump on you for not asking them Its just the nature of an internet website, although I think this one is much better than most about keeping it civil.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

I have almost 7000 posts, and I would say that I am still learning. Just since December I've begun to appreciate the qualities of S30V, for one. Trying to learn more about different steels, different hardnesses, different methods of sharpening (I can now safely say that I can put a good edge on 440C ), tiptoeing into the world of customs. A very healthy portion of my posts are just hot air, I sincerely hope that I've added something pertinent to the discussions over the past year.

Believe it or not, I'm trying very hard to cut my time on here down.

As for asking just one person, the great thing about the General Discussion forum is that everyone has a soap box. The bad thing is, everyone has a soap box.

 

[STR]

I don't need reminded of facts I'm well aware of Cliff. Do you think for one minute that I don't know either of you or Joe's reputations around here? Get real man and stop with the personal attacks by telling me I have a personal problem. I could say the same about you but I'd do it privately and not here.

I have a personal issue with addressing one or two people out of a crowd by starting a public thread. Where the hell did that attack come from anyway? What I said was not a negative comment toward you or Joe. It has nothing to do with who the single person called for was. It could have been me that was called out and I'd feel the same way. The guy (s) wanted to know your opinion and no one elses. Why does that require a public thread to ask you your opinion on a top three knives if the original guy asking the question really doesn't want to hear from anyone else but you?


By the way these 'open questions' as you call them don't do a thing to reduce repeated questions. Just do a random search and you see that very clearly.

Also, as for the open debate: I'm all for open debate but I don't think the original thread starters intent was for a debate. They wanted one persons opinion on their top three knives and not a debate. Alls I said basically was that they didn't need to start a thread on a public forrum to find that out and you want to psychoanalyze me. :jerkit: I give up.

I just thought it would be more fair to everyone to invite the whole of the membership here to contribute if someone is going to post it publically and for that I get told I need to address a personal problem. Thanks muchly. Go ahead and take all the BS. Seeing comments like yours above it isn't any wonder people around here chew you a new a$$ hole all the time.



STR

 

[STR]

Gbaker. I apoligize if I came across as trying to nail you to the wall or anyone else. Its more a curious puzzlement than anything else on my part. If you notice I never replied to the post question on either of the threads calling out Cliff or Joe. I only finally made a brief comment in this thread that has now gone sideways on me.

My point is that I'm sure many other valued opinions were missed out on since it was just a question for one person only. Obviously you as well as the rest of us are entitled to ask a question as much as anyone else and to whom ever you want. I just failed to see why it came across as, "Hey Cliff, I trust your opinion and would like to hear your views on blah blah." Or Hey Joe same question without adding at the end something like I'd also be interested in hearing from any other members as well. From the way I read the thread starter in both threads it seemed to me if you just want one person to contribute then just ask that one person privately.

That is the sole purpose for my writing and commenting. As for considering Cliff or Joe experts. I can see that. I can see why others may disagree also but Joe and Cliff provide a valuable service to our small part of the world here. I just think everyone else does also, including myself. I guess I'm the only one that felt the need to argue that point though. You know? I don't mean to sound insecure if that is the way it comes off. I'm not, trust me. I just think if you ask Cliff or Joe a question and only want their contribution and I chime in with my two cents worth when I wasnt' asked that it could be interpretted as rude or bold on my part since you didn't care to ask me for my two cents worth. If some want to see that as insecure fine. I see it differently.

STR

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I just think if you ask Cliff a question and I chime in with my two cents worth when I wasnt' asked that it could be interpretted as rude or bold on my part since you didn't care to ask me for my two cents worth. If some want to see that as insecure fine. I see it differently.

Considering the work you do improving knives, I'd rather have your opinion than Cliff's any day.

 

[Ebbtide]

STR don't sweat it.
We understand, GBaker understands.
And cliff is cliff.
Don't get sucked into the vortex of dynamic tangental dysfunctionalism.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

dynamic tangental dysfunctionalism

Wait. I took my degree in that.

 

[wwells20]

Thats fine Cliff. I just vented because it irritated me that no one elses opinion matters but those from you or Joe. With 55,000 plus members there is a wealth of information here many times greater than the two of you can provide by your lonesome.

I see no big conspiracy for hiding or betraying of information from our members here. I do feel if a question needs to be asked of an individual that asking him privately is the usual course of action though. Excluding the others from being sought for a reply was my main issue here and why it irritated me.

STR

FWIW, I'm always VERY (VERY) interested in your input here at BF. I haven't been here that long, but i have come to "know" some people here. I feel you have a great deal of knowledge for knife related issues and look forward to hearing from you often. Some of your "lil tidbits" of info have helped me greatly, thank you.:thumbup:

 

[Ebbtide]

Wait. I took my degree in that.

Well then, welcome to the vortex my friend

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have a personal issue with addressing one or two people out of a crowd by starting a public thread.

Forums are relatively new, such discussions used to be on usenet and mailing lists, still are to a much smaller audience. Even though these are public in that many people read them they are often private in that the conversations are among a much more narrow selection of the readership. However it is understood that the discussion is open which is why it isn't in private emails.

These methods were designed as noted in the above to allow private conversations to engage a wider audience and allow an open readership which has many direct and indirect benefits. It does not imply anything about the rest of the readership to ask one person a question. It just says you have a particular interest in that person's opinion.

Such conversations will have an ebb and flow and differnet people move in and out of them. Just like if you are out with a group of friends and you ask one of them a question, it does not mean the rest of them can not say anything, or that you are insulting the rest of them by not being ultra-PC and referencing everything as a group query.

The public/private matter also has a bunch of side issues, you should not readily repeat emails, but a public reply is perfectly fine. As well as noted there is the issue of responsibility. I have seen people in emails be very critical of a maker/manufacturer but in public be neutral at best, which is why I in general don't place much value on email commentary of that type.

I just thought it would be more fair to everyone to invite the whole of the membership here to contribute ...

There is nothing stopping that, but of course some people would rather talk about people than about knives.

-Cliff