Caly Jr. ZDP 189, reground by Tom Krein

[gunmike1]

Here is it! Thanks to the generosity of Sodak for fronting my the knife and regrind fees, and the skills of Tom Krein, I am the proud owner of a new Caly Jr. ZDP 189, with an edge that is .005" at the top of the bevel and is .020" thick 1/4" back from the edge. Tom put a nice, deep, high hollow on the knife, and a nice, tree topping edge on it too (I asked for as acute as possible, as I plan to sharpen it flat to the stone). This thing is tremendous, it just sails through cardboard (the only thing besides paper and tree topping hairs I have cut with it, and it still tree tops hairs after cutting a little cardboard), and is turning into my favorite precision cutter quickly. I like the ergos and extreme light weight a lot, though the Caly 3 in ZDP/CF is going to be the ultimate form of this knife, though quite a bit pricier. I did go to the local store to compare this knife to a new factory Caly Jr. ZDP behind the counter, and this knife made that knife look downright thick, which is hard to do. The kid behind the counter was amazed how thin this one is.

As a side note: Tom can regrind to most any spec you want, so if you want thicker, like hardheart's Ritter Grip(if you can call .011" behind the edge thick!), he can do that, and he can even thin out the knife and leave it flat ground. For instance, I eventually plan on sending in my Spyderco R2 (factory flat grind) to Tom to have him thin it out to an edge thickness around .010" (from about .021"-.022"), but keeping the flat grind so I can do a little more medium duty stuff with it than my current herd of ultrathin grinds. The results of his work are tremendous, as he took some knives that looked like they were ready for the scrap heap from flat to the stone grinding on a DMT XX Coarse stone, and he made them look as nice or nicer than factory. I really should have done some before and after pics for the Byrd meadowlark he did for me, it was unreal how he made that knife look so nice after it had been so thoroughly trashed. The man is an incredible talent, and his own knives are works of art (and high on my wish list, I just NEED an Ultimate Caper in M4). I can't recommend him enough. Plus, he loves the 10MM just like me, so he gains 10 points in my book right there! So, if you are interested in his own designs (they are numerous and very nice, available in almost any steel you can think of for very reasonable prices) or want Tom Krein to regrind one of your knives, call him at 479-736-3444. He is very friendly and helpful, and I have had nothing but great results from his work. I can't recommend him enough.

Again, thanks so much Sodak and Tom, I am in precision cutting heaven now!

 

[hardheart]

how about a spine shot?

I'm sitting here with my Rittergrip and zdp caly, sooooo tempted.

 

[ehhh]

Just curious (if you think it's PC to answer), but around how much does it cost to send a knife in to be reground? His work looks amazing, and those thin edges sound dangerously sharp.

 

[Tom Krein]

Mike,
WOW! Thanks for the kind words! glad you are happy with the Caly!

For those that are interested, I charge $35.00 for a regrind. I can do flat or hollow grind and can take them pretty close to what ever thickness you request. Feel free to give me a call Tuesday-Friday in the shop if you would like to discuss a project.

Thanks again!

Tom

 

[gunmike1]

how about a spine shot?

I'm sitting here with my Rittergrip and zdp caly, sooooo tempted.

Ask and you shall recieve! Not sure how much it will tell you, as it comes out a little blurry every time, but the tip is VERY fine, it will pierce with about 0 oz. of pressure. Prying should be limited to paper, as Tom mentioned in the other thread. I can't get edge into shots at all, and those would be the most telling as to how thin the knife really is.

Mike

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Spyderco really needs to run some lines like this and promote them as they are, high performance cutting tools, specialized for soft media and highly skilled users.

-Cliff

 

[db]

Hardheart, I am also very tempted to get the Krein treatment, in fact I have a knife I want to send to him. I’m really wondering though if the cutting performance gained is really much more than one can get by putting on a thin relief/backbevel? The ease of sharpening is a non-issue to me. Also when it is reground to such a thin hollow is the limited scope of work really worth it? The ultra thin knives seem to need great care in cutting and are mainly used by people that have them for testing benchmarks and not much else.

 

[hardheart]

It really does make a difference, I found that when casually checking out edge chipping by cutting cardboard. The thin stock cut much better. I've been thinking about how the people who really depend on knives the most-food prep pros (butchers, chefs and such), use thin blades for cutting. Also, dedicated cutters for boxes, linoleum, carpet, etc. are thin. Thick knives are praised for being able to handle some light prying or chopping, but there are much better tools for those jobs, just as thinner blades cut better. Between a cleaver and box cutter, folders are more similar to the .010" blade in usage. My Rittergrip is at that thickness, and with a better steel and HT than the cheapo razors, I'll use it for the same jobs as the box cutter and not have to worry about edge failure as much. Considering that wire stripping, scraping, and drilling holes are things I've done with disposable razors, I still feel my grip is a viable utility folder.

The relief only takes care of you up to the top of that grind. I don't think I'd go as low as gunmike does for an EDC folder (and I really wouldn't for a fixed blade with a blade >3"), but thin stock is the key, from there you can adjust edge angles. You can just think of these as really high reliefs

 

[DaveH]

That's pretty amazing! :thumbup:

 

[db]

My question really isn't ment to imply blade thinning or relief grinding isn't a good thing to do, or have done. I do it to all my knives. I do agree .010 is a very good thickness/thinness. I also think half that .005 is getting pretty darn thin. I am one who believes thinner is better, but the idea can be taken to far to the extreme. I feel like we are starting to head towards a discussion of different blade grinds, and how they effect cutting performance, and I'm not sure I want to go there in this thread.

 

[hardheart]

cool, I'll just say

Everybody get Tom Krein to regrind your knives!

 

[db]

Do you think we could all get a group rate? Tom I do have one or two I'd like to send to you in the near future.

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

Man, I want that knife bad!

 

[gunmike1]

It really does make a difference, I found that when casually checking out edge chipping by cutting cardboard. The thin stock cut much better. I've been thinking about how the people who really depend on knives the most-food prep pros (butchers, chefs and such), use thin blades for cutting. Also, dedicated cutters for boxes, linoleum, carpet, etc. are thin. Thick knives are praised for being able to handle some light prying or chopping, but there are much better tools for those jobs, just as thinner blades cut better. Between a cleaver and box cutter, folders are more similar to the .010" blade in usage. My Rittergrip is at that thickness, and with a better steel and HT than the cheapo razors, I'll use it for the same jobs as the box cutter and not have to worry about edge failure as much. Considering that wire stripping, scraping, and drilling holes are things I've done with disposable razors, I still feel my grip is a viable utility folder.

The relief only takes care of you up to the top of that grind. I don't think I'd go as low as gunmike does for an EDC folder (and I really wouldn't for a fixed blade with a blade >3"), but thin stock is the key, from there you can adjust edge angles. You can just think of these as really high reliefs

I agree with .010" as a good EDC thickness (that's why I want my R2 around there) if you want one knife as a good utility tool. I always carry more than 1 knife though, usually a Manix at 10/15 per side and .024" at the top of the bevel for HD (though it works well for most anything but paring), along with a couple smaller folders, including these ultrathin ones for the lighter duty precision type cutting. If you are looking for a single EDC I would say that this knife is too thin for utility usage, as you do need to make sure you don't twist heavily in cuts and avoid packing staples in boxes like the plague, but it cuts through cardboard, food, and rope with tremendous ease. At this thinness the knives takes an edge immediately when sharpening, and get very sharp, and on top of that retain the edge better than my thicker knives. They pretty much define what a pure cutting knife is. However, like I said, I always have something thicker on hand to handle chores which these ultrathin knives might have trouble with. Either way, Tom Krein can grind it pretty close to whatever thickness you want, and your knife will cut better, and in all likelihood look better, too.

Mike

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If you are looking for a single EDC I would say that this knife is too thin for utility usage, as you do need to make sure you don't twist heavily in cuts and avoid packing staples in boxes like the plague, but it cuts through cardboard, food, and rope with tremendous ease.

This will come in time with use and experience. I see that profile as actually a rather robust one and use knives which are much thinner. I do wood work with hollow ground knives which are under 0.010" at the edge, cut branches from trees and such.

Everybody get Tom Krein to regrind your knives!

Buying a knife from him might not be a bad idea either.

You can just think of these as really high reliefs ...

While I understand the point, this was one (of the many) failings of Juranitch's viewpoint. Many makers today still continue this farce by adding relief edge grinds to knives which is the worst way to increase performance. If the edge is too thick/obtuse you have to adjust the primary grind as Krein does, not slack belt the edge (and then cry hail the convex grind) as many people advocate.

-Cliff

 

[db]

As adding a relief grind/ back bevel is thinning the blade grind above the edge bevel, how can that possibly be the worst way to increase performance of a knife you just bought for yourself? What are all the better ways to increase the performance of a factory knife that someone has just bought for themselves? Other than sending it to Tom Krein that is.

 

[hardheart]

Buying a knife from him might not be a bad idea either.

You sound just like my wallet

on opposite day

I do want one, gotta decide which, I'm currently torn on 4 models...

db-I think that's why Cliff said makers were making the mistake of adding reliefs, they should be grinding thinner primaries to begin with.

 

[db]

I think it is a fairly safe guess that Cliff was referring to Hossom by the comment. As I have no need to defend him or any other maker, I don’t believe adding a relief/back bevel can be called the worst way to improve or increase performance. In fact for us the end user it is probably one of if not the best way to increase performance our selves. Note he does say it does increase performance, even though he thinks it is the worst way to do so.

 

[hardheart]

I was actually thinking razorback...

it's a balancing act, anything over a micron isn't doing the cutting, it's just keeping the cutting edge in place and not flopping around like tinfoil.

 

[gunmike1]

This will come in time with use and experience. I see that profile as actually a rather robust one and use knives which are much thinner. I do wood work with hollow ground knives which are under 0.010" at the edge, cut branches from trees and such.

I don't posess your zen like skills at holding my cuts straight like you yet, but my Native at .008" with a high hollow grind is turning out to be very durable in thicker plastics and such. A pleasing surprise. The Meadowlark, which is about 1/2 the thickness, had the edge bend in a couple spots on a hard, fast (to test the limits, not trying to baby it through) cut through a 1 gallon Gatorade bottle when it hit a thick part of the bottle that was a crease and made the knife twist through the cut. It sharpened out flat to the stone OK, and I am leaving at least an inch of blade out of harm's way for that one so I can test it when I get my materials and time lined up. The Native had no such issues. After doing the testing the knives will get some more harsh use to test them, but for most EDC tasks like packages, boxes, rope, and food the really thin grinds work like a champ. By the time the testing is done I will hopefully have increased my skill as well to the point where durability isn't as much of a concern with the really thin grinds. The cutting ability of these knives is so high it just warps your sense of what cutting ability is, it is addicting.

Buying a knife from him might not be a bad idea either.

Agreed. Like I said earlier the Ultimate Caper is seared into my brain.