Camillus in trouble

R

rev_jch

Joined
Jul 29, 2002
Messages
3,228
Well, Im not sure if you guys have read it? But there is a short article in this last issue of knife world that confirms that camillus is in trouble.

I had heard from someone associated with camillus, about a year, or more ago (cannot mention a name)? That camillus was having financial trouble. Not too long after schrade closed its doors for good.

This article confirms camillus' troubles. The article states the union workers fromt here have been on strike since this past may. So that is quite a while. It seems the factory wanted them to take holiday, vacation pay cuts, and contribute more to their health insurance. And work a shorter week, which they already were working a shorter week (if I remember correctly?). Camillus is a long surviving company that has made allot of its own brands and allot of jobbing for others. It would sure be a shame to watch them go under, but the current trends in "cheap" overseas outsourcing, and other factors, does not look good for it at this point in time.

As Americans, we may not be the sole reason for some of this "cheap" stuff coming from overseas, but we are great a factor in it! Those that make cheap stuff only supply the consumer with what they are looking for! What theyr "buy". Like "wally world". They get away with selling allot of cheap stuff, because people buy it! And in many cases it is understandable (why people shop there), I for one, am guilty of sometimes shopping there myself. They pushed schrade to have more "cheap things" made overseas, and it helped to put schrade out of business. Just like other businesses that have gone under. Outsourcing can be good for a company, and really bad! Rubbermaid is another company that is gone due to the factors overseas with cheap stuff. You may see things "stamped" rubbermaid, but they are no longer rubbermaid, and no longer made in Ohio.

Hopefully camillus can survive. Yes camillus is guilty of making some of the "cheap'" knives overseas also. Its a shame they have to do that to try to survive.

There is allot of history behind those factory doors. It would be a shame to loose a great american cutlery company. There are so few left!

It seemed at one time, many, many, years ago, that parker, and frost both, were the ones shipping almost all the "cheap" cutlery coming into this country from the far east. Now we are "surrounded" buy it. All you have to do is go to any gas station, walmart, flea market, or smoky mountain (the "wally world" of cheap cutlery, even though they also sell allot of nice knives, they are big on selling junk to).

Me, personally? I try to stay away from that stuff.

This is something I think we could all consider.
Where our money goes, the market is dictated (to a strong point).
 
Outsourcing isn't the problem---they have to start making things people want----Benchmade---Buck---Bark River and such don't seem to have much problem selling pretty much everything they make.

They also need to run the union out of there.
 
When I look at Camillus' lineup, I see very little I'd like to buy. Companies that sell things people want to buy have an easier time staying afloat.
 
Interesting thread.
I've seen these patterns before.
Do you feel that part of the problem may be the sheer volume of SIMILAR options? I mean, growing up as a teen I can only remember Buck was the maker of 'serious' big knives, Camillus made a BS pocket knife that I owned and Case & Schrade made the knives my grandpa used to whittle Green heart saplings with.
I'm sure each of you has a similar list.
Now zoom forward to 2006 and you've got what seems like a Gazillion makers- both Domestic and Foreign pumping out pretty much the same solutions to the age old challenges. It's basically a case of 'Knife Glut'.
Historically, winnowing down the makers in any industry is eventually how the best, baddest and cheapest survive. Its the getting caught in between that creates casualties.
Another observation I've made is that whomesoever captures the market through advertising & PR, basically ownes the market. Most companies that go under- do so for lack of Advertising capital and poor strategy- not because of outsourcing.
The trend of thinning the field is likely to continue- lamentably, Camillus is near and dear to my heart. The good news is they can re-strategize into new product lines. The old "Swords into Plowshares" adage springs to mind
 
Right - Camillus ownership has got to decide that it wants to run a successful knife company. Products people want, attractive marketing, great customer service...

They seem to do fine selling the Beckers - useful, high quality, well-priced product.

Their competition - Ontario specifically - and also Benchmade, Spyderco, Buck etc. (as mentioned) - is just outrunning and outperforming them. Giving the customers what they want...

I'm reminded of the famous quote "Give the people what they want and the people will make you rich."
 
Well, I think outsourcing is part of the problem. And there are other factors involved also. Part of the problem is health care costs in this country. The insurance costs for a business to insure their employees is really high. Any of you that own your own businesses, and pay for the premiums know what I am talking about. Its hard enough to run a business, the costs involved, then have to cover health insurance to! and the costs of materials is much higher than years ago. Ive made custom knives (part time) for over 24+ years. The costs of steel, bone, stag, even just rivets and screws, not to mention expendable materials, is much higher than it use to be. Now granted, they are much bigger so their overhead is much more desirable, than mine. But the facts are, that it is more expensive to run a business these days. Then of course the rise in gas prices also affects the costs greatly.


And as far as camillus' products, they have always sold a line, or lines, of "inexpensive' knives, going well back over a 100 years (so this is nothing new), but they also have had lines of good knives. I dont think their lineup is really bad at all. They have the becker line, the cuda line, and OVB line. So when it comes to "new and upcoming" things like benchmade and others make, they are not far behind. The Ralph designs, such as the cuda max, and the dominator, the EDC, all very good knives, and good sellers.

And anyone who has dealt with their cusomer service knows its always been outstanding.

Moodino,
years ago, there were other options other than Buck. Marbles, queen, case, etc. etc. etc. just to name a few. I believe the "knfie buying" market is much better than it use to be! Years ago, most people bought soley for use. These days there are many collectors, and "enthusiasts" out there. It was Jim parker, over 30+ years ago, that started promoting knife collecting to the public. With his own knives, and those that already exsited.
 
Blaming the union is a red herring (smoke screen/ diversion) for piss-poor management!! Unions are the main reason the poverty line isn't rising at a faster rate. If a company can't provide a living wage for its employees, managment dropped the ball. Or stole it!
 
Waynorth, I have to agree with you.

There are allot of businesses out there that would love their employees to work for dimes and nickels and give them no benefits. In fact, as we know allot of them do! All you have to do is look at allot of the countries overseas and see what goes on!!

Unions would have never come to being to begin with, if employers had always done whats right where their employees are concerned!

Cutting workers pay, then expecting them to give more, and take less benefits is "incentive" for them to go else where. And from that article in knife world, some of them have!
 
I hate to see them go, but it isn't the first time that a labor union has done such as outstanding job of "representing" their members that they put them all out of a job.:grumpy:

Remember, unions want everybody to be the same, and the company isn't allowed to pay it's best worker any more than it pays it's worst worker.:jerkit:

That kind of thinking encourages mediocrity.:yawn:
 
It can Ben. But I really dont think you can blame camillus' financial problems on the union.

Cutting a wokers wages, and benefits, and making them pay more for own insurance, is not the unions doing.
 
rev_jch said:
I dont think their lineup is really bad at all. They have the becker line, the cuda line, and OVB line. So when it comes to "new and upcoming" things like benchmade and others make, they are not far behind. The Ralph designs, such as the cuda max, and the dominator, the EDC, all very good knives, and good sellers.
Click to expand...

rev_jch - I just don't see that Camillus has stepped up the last couple of years in terms of product the way other companies have. The Cudas are great but cost a lot. And there are only a couple of models. Then they have the assisted openers and EDC that they make in Taiwan. (The Beckers we already mentioned - they're great.)

Buck, Ontario, Spyderco, all - have to deal with rising health costs and higher energy costs. Camillus is on the same playing field - the USA - as those companies.

If Camillus made a folder or two that was mentioned on BF half as often as the BM 710 or the Spyderco Native or Buck 110 - all made in the USA as you know - they'd be having a lot fewer problems. In fact, they could be doing very, very well.

For one example, look at the recent "buzz" Buck has made with its custom offerings on the 110 - and they're selling, too. Customers are thrilled with them.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

IMO Camillus ownership/management should stop playing the blame game and get going, doing what it has to do.
 
I totally agree with the above 2 posters(oops, too slow-waynorth and rev_jch). camillus had a better lineup than say, schrade. It's hardly the union's fault for wanting to at least keep the same pay rate for employees that have been there for upwards of 20+ years.
 
I see lots of fit and finish problems with cammilus products. I'd rather have a slipjoint from Case, Queen or S&M than cammilus any day of the week. Of their tacticals, I wanted a MadMax and hunted for years but could never find one with decent lock-up and fit and finish.

Overall, I can always find a different manufacturer's product at the same or lower price than camillus with better quality. You add all this together and the company is going to have problems irrespective of their union relationships.
 
I am not a supporter of unions but, in my opinion, when a company goes under it is management's fault. They failed. The union may contribute to the company's demise but it still the fault of management.
 
It is sad to see they have some trouble. I have bought a few Camillus over the years. I especially like the folders with rosewood handles and brass bolsters. The #3 comes to mind, do they still sell it? I also have some old Buck's and Remingtons including some bullet knives that were made by them. I even have a Spyderco native that was made by them. Now Remington and some cheaper Bucks are made in China. I always like the traditional Camillus's and I hope they can hang in there.
 
What about all the contract work that they do for the military, for Moore Maker and the knives they make for the Boy Scouts?

That can't keep them afloat?
 
pickupman said:
What about all the contract work that they do for the military, for Moore Maker and the knives they make for the Boy Scouts?

That can't keep them afloat?
Click to expand...

And Cold Steel ("Carbon V" = Camillus).
 
Not to mention some of the remingtons, the limited edtion, and yearly bullet knives (in the recent years, the ones with bone handles).

I do know what your talking about with some of the "fit and finish" problems, and it wasnt always that way. Its just another way they cut cost. And think of this also, their financial problems have been going on for a long time. What happens when you have an employee who is not happy, and afraid of loosing his job? I doubt you'll get better work out fo him. Some may say, "well he should work harder than". But in my experience of doing factory work, it usually does not happen that way!

The "fit and finish" of the EDC's, arclites, and the dominators I bought made here, were outstanding.
 
pickupman said:
What about all the contract work that they do for the military, for Moore Maker and the knives they make for the Boy Scouts?

That can't keep them afloat?
Click to expand...

No. OEM work has always been the base of the Camillus business model. Now that is going overseas. Their work force is on strike. The only part of the business that can keep them afloat is the imports but they can't do OEM work with imports. If Camillus is to survive, they will have to give up manufacturing, sell the equipment and outsource everything. They'll need to get smaller and give up the OEM business. If they don't, they aren't likely to make it based on other business failures I've seen in the industry.

The reality is that manufacturing low end knives in the U.S. just isn't an option at the moment. The low end has gone overseas. Building a brand from scratch at the higher end of the market would take too long. They were beginning to do that a few years ago with the Cuda line but they lost the individual that was doing all the product development. Once he was gone, nothing new and modern was being developed. It had to come to this eventually.

It is really sad because Camillus has been a pleasure to deal with and, until just the last couple of years, was the largest company still doing 100% of its production in the U.S. That's about the time we lost Schrade, the second largest one. Very sad indeed.
 
Let's take a good long look at U.S. manufacturing.

We have Unions that come to the table and demand cost of living increases in wages, healthcare coverage, benefits, and paid vacation time. Then, the Government comes along and says the company must comply with volumes of regulations, pay cost of living taxes, and provide healthcare coverage. Then the People come along and ask for a good quality product at a reasonable price, but what is reasonable since the cheap, non Union, non regulated, non health oriented countries of the world can do it so much cheaper?

Then the Special Interest Groups come along and sue the manufacturers for making the product in the first place and put more burdens on the management to comply with ridiculous labeling requirements and paying for outreach programs for all kinds of disgusting causes while continuing to put the company out of business by convincing you and I that our children will never need such a product. They get into the schools where us Parents aren't even allowed to complain anymore and convince the schools they need zero tolerance programs for some things and complete tolerance for everything else. All of which kills the consumer base for the manufactured product and leaves our children stupid and indoctrinated and totally dependant on the nanny state.

We adults, who should have seen it coming, all complain and moan, but sit idly by hoping things will get better. Well, if you really want Camillus to stay a U.S. company start a company to provide the proper financing to Camillus while asking for oversight. Fire the Union workers and develop a fair compensation system that can't be shot down. Hire a good work force and start pumping out what U.S. citizens want at a price that competes with a wider field of knife makers. Sure they'll be $20.00 instead of $10.00, but the quality will be so much better. Then convince your customers that they're buying quality instead of convenience.

Of course you'll need customers to begin with, so get the schools to repeal their zero tolerance rules against students carrying pocket knives. Tell the special interests to take a flying leap. Show the government the door and tell them they had better leave you alone or you'll demand subsidies and take them to the U.S. Supreme Court if necessary to prove they have to pay you. (Don't forget to pull more money out of your investors for all the law suits you'll have to try to win) Meanwhile, not a thing has come out of the factory.

In the end you might get to make knives in the U.S.of A.. That is, until the S.I.G.s smear the company and picket outside your buildings calling you killers, bigots, and a host of other names. The cool kids will eat this up and lay down in the halls of their schools with fake blood over parts of their bodies implicating knives as the cause of injury. The Parents will complain that their spoiled brats are not getting a good education from a school that allows such behavior, and you'll be one of them, and the zero tolerance rules will go back into effect while you wonder what the heck happened.

Future sales basically destroyed; the management can now get blamed for taking a salary while trying to fight all these battles and not making anything, proving that they are ripping off the people. (When did they have the time to do that?) Even though they owe astronomical sums to lawyers, PR folks, and suppliers there's no money because the "Share holders" won't invest another dime in a company that doesn't make anything. (Oh, and the suppliers were Union folk who would only sell to Union shops so you had to outsource the steel you needed from Eastern Europe hoping the quality was good enough)

In the end, management goes to jail for a ton of charges for trying to keep a company in the U.S. with the current eco-political mess we've inherited from every Union supporting, anti-knife, pacifist, whiney Special Interest Group. And, I never get my Camillus U.S. Camp Knife back.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top