Expirament.. find the combo that is right for you. Be versitile, sometimes, my combo changes to meet my needs for season/terrain. Try not to get a fixed mind set on one thing until you have expirenced the good/bad of it. Some days a multitool, and a hatchet work, some days a folding saw,fised blade are fine. Juicy vines and brush, a thin machete, heavier wood, a heavier machete/ knife. Too feed a fire, a 3/4 axe or saw. Always remember the SAK!!
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Camping/Hiking: Knife or Axe?
- Thread starter Skunkabilly
- Start date
- Joined
- May 1, 2002
- Messages
- 169
Knife or Axe? - khukuri! it does the job of both!
I like the 'ultralight' idea of a wire saw, and would consider it for a survival tin sorta item, but it could never really replace the versatility of a khuk, or as Rifter said, a machete (if you're that way inclined)
I like the 'ultralight' idea of a wire saw, and would consider it for a survival tin sorta item, but it could never really replace the versatility of a khuk, or as Rifter said, a machete (if you're that way inclined)
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2002
- Messages
- 3,291
To me, traveling light and carrying tools that perform multiple duty is the way to go. My energy is better off being spent elsewhere, that's why I carry a Becker BK-7, it handles all of the lite chopping duties that I care to do in the wilderness, as well as doing all of the digging and slicing chores.
You get familiarize with using it in safe context- at home, &/or when others are around to assist in case of injury. Also when you are healthy and have ampel energy, also be sure to use proper technique (with log between you, then you chop branches off other side, ect.,) Most people I know that use axes, they do so for preference for "older ways" not because it is necessarily most efficient (although they are VERY good with ax), also most suffered mild or bad injury with lasting scar to show for it.
WRONG context- on trail or campsite FAR away from good medical service, alone or only with one or two companions, when you are tired after long day- exhaustion= "cutting corners" on safety= increase opportunity for error. When you make mistake OUT THERE instead of backyard even a mild ax injury can be serious, knife injuries are usually to hand or arms while ax injury often is to your leg. Even if you cut off your fingers you can still walk out and hold your hand up to reduce bleeding, if you gouge your shin, knee, or foot you cannot walk out and would wish you cut off your fingers instead.
Martin
I think that both a knife and an axe are worth carrying. If I had to choose just one, my choice would depend on what area and conditions and uses it was for.
I think that a knife is most versatile, an axe can be close in terms of versatility, and a saw is totally inadequate in versatility for a stand-alone tool. (Though it may be well worth bringing, in addition.)
How much that versatility matters to you depends on what you're doing.
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Griffon said:
"The "safest" axe is one which has a handle long enough it'll hit the ground instead of your foot. And one long enough to hit your foot instead of your knee will make you less handicapped.
Me, I'm looking for one with a relatively light head, but really long handle."
Hey, Griffon, give this a try:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209202
By using the technique detailed in this thread, you can get a knife to chop much better than a hatchet, and close to as well as a full-sized axe.
I think that a knife is most versatile, an axe can be close in terms of versatility, and a saw is totally inadequate in versatility for a stand-alone tool. (Though it may be well worth bringing, in addition.)
How much that versatility matters to you depends on what you're doing.
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Griffon said:
"The "safest" axe is one which has a handle long enough it'll hit the ground instead of your foot. And one long enough to hit your foot instead of your knee will make you less handicapped.
Me, I'm looking for one with a relatively light head, but really long handle."
Hey, Griffon, give this a try:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209202
By using the technique detailed in this thread, you can get a knife to chop much better than a hatchet, and close to as well as a full-sized axe.
Heck, use a stove and don't build a fire at all. Who needs a fire? Hot beverages and food work way better to warm you up. An axe is only necessary if you will be in the real wilderness for long enough to need to build a house and such. I have the nice little Gerber hatchet, and use it only to open coconuts when I camp in Hawaii. I have the Gerber folding saw (the $10 one) and use it to cut my Christmas tree. I have a Kukri, and my wife had fun chopping with it, but we don't carry it in the field. I do always carry a Victorinox with a saw, in case I need to make something of wood or PVC, and sometimes I carry a Sven saw or the Gerber saw for trail clearing.
calyth
#!/bin/sh of a man
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2002
- Messages
- 3,574
rep: what if you ran out of fuel?
I have a very light weight stove already, but it only takes a propane & butane mix and don't burn any other fuel. Also The fuel cans aren't exactly lightweight either.
Learning how to use an axe in a wilderness situation could certainly help on some situations.
I have a very light weight stove already, but it only takes a propane & butane mix and don't burn any other fuel. Also The fuel cans aren't exactly lightweight either.
Learning how to use an axe in a wilderness situation could certainly help on some situations.
I don't think Skunkabilly was very clear about his intended use. "Outdoor use" covers a wide range.
Most people don't get far enough into the wilds to ever need an axe. If you are backpacking, you will likely have no need of either axe or saw. You likely will be cooking with a stove. If you run out of fuel, you can easily cook your meals over a twig fire. My old boy scout manual said if you can't break it with your hands, it's too big for a cook fire. As far as I'm concerned, that's still good advice.
As for keeping you warm, if you travel with a nylon tent and nylon sleeping bag, you won't be doing much sleeping next to a fire unless you want to ruin your gear. So you won't need an axe to chop down the forest for a fire.
I can think of several instances where an axe and saw are ideal.
1) winter camping - if you break through the ice, you need to get a fire going quickly, and big enough to dry your clothes - read Jack London's To Build a Fire
2) canoeing - dump your canoe and you will want a good fire to dry you out, especially if it's late fall, winter, or early spring. Make sure the axe is lashed in so that it can be recovered.
3) It's especially critical if you dump it during a long wet trip because the axe will get you dry wood to get a fire going quicker than anything else. Hypothermia is a killer.
4) primitive camping/hiking - get a good Gransfors Bruks Small Forest Axe - ditch the Gerber - it's junk compared to a GB. The wildlife hatchet is also excellent and the mini hatchet is perhaps one of the best survival tools you can carry and the only one I would choose for backpacking (although if I was younger, I might consider the wildlife hatchet). It has a hammer poll and with a club, you can pretty much get all the wood you want by hammering on the poll to drive the axe into wood for felling or splitting. You should have no trouble using the mini to cut saplings for shelter building.
5) if you are a trapper and spend weeks and months in the wilds, the scandanavian forest axe will build you a small trappers cabin, the wildlife hatchet will make and pound stakes for sets.
There's a lot to be said for building a fire to connect with our primeval past. Like most of you, I have passed many joyful hours sitting by a campfire and watching the burning embers. But if you are in any kind of true wilderness, you shouldn't have any trouble finding firewood for a recreational campfire. If you have to have a chopper to get firewood, chances are you are in an area that has been overused and it would be much better for the environment to skip the fire. Carry a nice planisphere and learn the constellations instead. Fires can isolate you from the night sky.
If you backpack on trails, leave the choppers at home. They just become dead weight and imo, a badge of a rookie backpacker. I do carry a lightweight fixed blade, usually a puukko, mora, or lately I've become enamored of the heavier Gerber Yari. But basically, a good multifunction SAK or multitool will do all the chores you need, mile after mile of backpacking. For protection, I do carry a firearm though. But I've never needed it.
Most people don't get far enough into the wilds to ever need an axe. If you are backpacking, you will likely have no need of either axe or saw. You likely will be cooking with a stove. If you run out of fuel, you can easily cook your meals over a twig fire. My old boy scout manual said if you can't break it with your hands, it's too big for a cook fire. As far as I'm concerned, that's still good advice.
As for keeping you warm, if you travel with a nylon tent and nylon sleeping bag, you won't be doing much sleeping next to a fire unless you want to ruin your gear. So you won't need an axe to chop down the forest for a fire.
I can think of several instances where an axe and saw are ideal.
1) winter camping - if you break through the ice, you need to get a fire going quickly, and big enough to dry your clothes - read Jack London's To Build a Fire
2) canoeing - dump your canoe and you will want a good fire to dry you out, especially if it's late fall, winter, or early spring. Make sure the axe is lashed in so that it can be recovered.
3) It's especially critical if you dump it during a long wet trip because the axe will get you dry wood to get a fire going quicker than anything else. Hypothermia is a killer.
4) primitive camping/hiking - get a good Gransfors Bruks Small Forest Axe - ditch the Gerber - it's junk compared to a GB. The wildlife hatchet is also excellent and the mini hatchet is perhaps one of the best survival tools you can carry and the only one I would choose for backpacking (although if I was younger, I might consider the wildlife hatchet). It has a hammer poll and with a club, you can pretty much get all the wood you want by hammering on the poll to drive the axe into wood for felling or splitting. You should have no trouble using the mini to cut saplings for shelter building.
5) if you are a trapper and spend weeks and months in the wilds, the scandanavian forest axe will build you a small trappers cabin, the wildlife hatchet will make and pound stakes for sets.
There's a lot to be said for building a fire to connect with our primeval past. Like most of you, I have passed many joyful hours sitting by a campfire and watching the burning embers. But if you are in any kind of true wilderness, you shouldn't have any trouble finding firewood for a recreational campfire. If you have to have a chopper to get firewood, chances are you are in an area that has been overused and it would be much better for the environment to skip the fire. Carry a nice planisphere and learn the constellations instead. Fires can isolate you from the night sky.
If you backpack on trails, leave the choppers at home. They just become dead weight and imo, a badge of a rookie backpacker. I do carry a lightweight fixed blade, usually a puukko, mora, or lately I've become enamored of the heavier Gerber Yari. But basically, a good multifunction SAK or multitool will do all the chores you need, mile after mile of backpacking. For protection, I do carry a firearm though. But I've never needed it.
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2002
- Messages
- 86
Great advice, guys....pardon my ignorance, what does a 'chopper' refer to? Can I use my AH-64 Apache to create firewood? 
(Once I get the ATF to clear the paperwork on that chaingun)
I am speaking of softcore hiking, car camping, maybe backpacking but otherwise my yuppie 'Gee I love the outdoors eeep get that bug away from me!!' level of experience.
(or is this just another subconcious effort for me to justify some new toys)
(Once I get the ATF to clear the paperwork on that chaingun)I am speaking of softcore hiking, car camping, maybe backpacking but otherwise my yuppie 'Gee I love the outdoors eeep get that bug away from me!!' level of experience.
(or is this just another subconcious effort for me to justify some new toys)
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 45,041
Skunk, a chopper is a larger bladed knife (means different things to different people) capable of both cutting tasks and some chopping.
Many knives fall into this arena such as those made by Becker Knife and Tool, Busse (Basics, Swamp Rat as well as the Standard Busse lineup), Ontario's RTAK, and larger Fallkniven models amongst others.
For the type of activity you just described it sounds like just about anything will do, but there's always a good excuse for adding more iron to your diet.
Many knives fall into this arena such as those made by Becker Knife and Tool, Busse (Basics, Swamp Rat as well as the Standard Busse lineup), Ontario's RTAK, and larger Fallkniven models amongst others.
For the type of activity you just described it sounds like just about anything will do, but there's always a good excuse for adding more iron to your diet.
Skunkabilly, I always take an axe for car camping. I always have a full sized axe or 3/4 axe in my vehicle just for emergency needs. If you head down a two track, you may need it to clear a log off the road. If you are camping in a campground, you can often buy firewood nearby and you may want to split up some of it. Or some guys take their own firewood along and split it up in the campground.
If you are doing a lot of dayhiking, the mini gransfors is a great little survival tool. Lightweight but capable of saving your butt, making you a shelter if you have to spend the night in the woods. I carry mine for day hiking and in my hunting vest during hunting season.
I forgot to mention another good reason to carry an axe and especially a folding saw. If you are canoeing a little traveled stream, you often can find it handy. Sometimes you get a lot of windthrow across streams, making them impassable by canoe. This can turn into a lot of work but usually not. Depends on how much windthrow and how difficult it is to slip past. The sawvivor would be especially handy for such tasks although I've used my Wyoming saw for this and a Sandvik folding saw.
If you are doing a lot of dayhiking, the mini gransfors is a great little survival tool. Lightweight but capable of saving your butt, making you a shelter if you have to spend the night in the woods. I carry mine for day hiking and in my hunting vest during hunting season.
I forgot to mention another good reason to carry an axe and especially a folding saw. If you are canoeing a little traveled stream, you often can find it handy. Sometimes you get a lot of windthrow across streams, making them impassable by canoe. This can turn into a lot of work but usually not. Depends on how much windthrow and how difficult it is to slip past. The sawvivor would be especially handy for such tasks although I've used my Wyoming saw for this and a Sandvik folding saw.
Although I absolutely agree with just about everything Hoodoo said, I do want to throw my 2 cents in here. Understand that I have not read through the whole thread and merely replying to Hoodoo's comments. In other words, Hoodoo and Blues are like E.F. Hutton to me, when they talk I listen. So when I saw Hoodoo and Blues involved in this thread it caught my attention.
First of all I carry a GB small Forrester's axe in my truck everywhere I go. As Hoodoo said there is none better when it comes to hatchets and axes. With that said, I refuse to discount the Gerbers. I have used one for years with great success. It takes a very keen edge, easy to sharpen, comfortable, inexpensive, and lightweight. We have used a Gerber many times to chop through obstructions going upriver in Peru. I don't care what anyone else will say, my Gerber hatchet has beaten just about every Kukri on the market when it comes to chopping through large deadfall. In other words I'll take the cheap Gerber over a Kukri anyday.
As for a "need" for an axe or hatchet...well it all depends on what you are doing. As Hoodoo pointed out, any weekend backpacker that carries such a tool is usually inexperienced. With that said, if my trip consists of traveling waterways (as Hoodoo has already pointed out) then there will be a small axe or hatchet in the canoe (secured). I have seen too many times both in SA and in the States that these tools have gotten me out of jams.
Now, I still prefer a machete type blade if I can only carry one edge. I can do anything with a machete, even though it may not be the preferred tool for any one job it is the best all around tool for just about any situation. The "cheap" nature of machetes often causes them to be discounted as serious tools by knife nuts and weekend warriors. It's just not sexy to carry around a 10 dollar blade when there are so many "high quality" survival and outdoor knives on the market. Most of this bullshit is driven from hype directly relating to dollars and profit. Sure, if I have someone who will carry my pack with the whole Walmart inside then I would carry several different blades more suited to a particular job, but then again if I have that then I'm taking my chainsaw, chain file, a gallon of premixed gas, bar oil, a cant hook, snaking tongs, chain, and my Kubota tractor to help with the wood cutting chores. Better yet I'll just stay at home and turn on the central heat, pop open a Rolling Rock beer, flip on the Playboy channel, and play with myself.
As for SAKs...I like them and carry them regularly on trips. I believe they are a fine survival knife but I haven't seen much I can't do with any decent edge. Except for the saw models I think SAKs are over-rated when it comes to survival. Given a choice between a SAk and my beat up KaBar, I'll take the KaBar.
Jeff
First of all I carry a GB small Forrester's axe in my truck everywhere I go. As Hoodoo said there is none better when it comes to hatchets and axes. With that said, I refuse to discount the Gerbers. I have used one for years with great success. It takes a very keen edge, easy to sharpen, comfortable, inexpensive, and lightweight. We have used a Gerber many times to chop through obstructions going upriver in Peru. I don't care what anyone else will say, my Gerber hatchet has beaten just about every Kukri on the market when it comes to chopping through large deadfall. In other words I'll take the cheap Gerber over a Kukri anyday.
As for a "need" for an axe or hatchet...well it all depends on what you are doing. As Hoodoo pointed out, any weekend backpacker that carries such a tool is usually inexperienced. With that said, if my trip consists of traveling waterways (as Hoodoo has already pointed out) then there will be a small axe or hatchet in the canoe (secured). I have seen too many times both in SA and in the States that these tools have gotten me out of jams.
Now, I still prefer a machete type blade if I can only carry one edge. I can do anything with a machete, even though it may not be the preferred tool for any one job it is the best all around tool for just about any situation. The "cheap" nature of machetes often causes them to be discounted as serious tools by knife nuts and weekend warriors. It's just not sexy to carry around a 10 dollar blade when there are so many "high quality" survival and outdoor knives on the market. Most of this bullshit is driven from hype directly relating to dollars and profit. Sure, if I have someone who will carry my pack with the whole Walmart inside then I would carry several different blades more suited to a particular job, but then again if I have that then I'm taking my chainsaw, chain file, a gallon of premixed gas, bar oil, a cant hook, snaking tongs, chain, and my Kubota tractor to help with the wood cutting chores. Better yet I'll just stay at home and turn on the central heat, pop open a Rolling Rock beer, flip on the Playboy channel, and play with myself.
As for SAKs...I like them and carry them regularly on trips. I believe they are a fine survival knife but I haven't seen much I can't do with any decent edge. Except for the saw models I think SAKs are over-rated when it comes to survival. Given a choice between a SAk and my beat up KaBar, I'll take the KaBar.
Jeff
Hey Jeff, I stand corrected about the Gerber hatchet. 
I think most of your outdoor experiences are different than mine in that you spend so much time in the jungle (which I've never done) and you do far more primitive, off-the-beaten-path stuff than I do. When I talk about backpacking, I'm talking primarily about well-marked, well-used trails. Even in places like the Bob Marshall which I've hiked, it's not too difficult to follow a trail that has had a dozen horse pack trains down it. I have been on some uncleared trails in the Bob but you need a two man crosscut to clear them and that's exactly how they do it because chainsaws are not allowed. So you either climb over or around. There's nothing to hack through. And we dont' have kudzu up here either...
I think most of your outdoor experiences are different than mine in that you spend so much time in the jungle (which I've never done) and you do far more primitive, off-the-beaten-path stuff than I do. When I talk about backpacking, I'm talking primarily about well-marked, well-used trails. Even in places like the Bob Marshall which I've hiked, it's not too difficult to follow a trail that has had a dozen horse pack trains down it.
I have been on some uncleared trails in the Bob but you need a two man crosscut to clear them and that's exactly how they do it because chainsaws are not allowed. So you either climb over or around. There's nothing to hack through. And we dont' have kudzu up here either...
calyth
#!/bin/sh of a man
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2002
- Messages
- 3,574
bensano: That's the reason why I carried my leatherman juice to my last camping trip. And the pliers definately helped.
On my last trip, my friends says that I was gettting too much equipment (don't ask me where the thread was, most people agreed with me and they were carrying hot dog and bread into a campsite for food and plan on hiking 12km out), but we end up needing to split firewood, so my hatchet did end up quite useful there.
That's the reason why I wanted to ask when do I really need an axe.
So what you guys are saying if I stick by well-used trails and don't bring/buy firelogs and pick my own off the ground, I probably won't need an axe, right? If so I'll keep that in mind next time.
On my last trip, my friends says that I was gettting too much equipment (don't ask me where the thread was, most people agreed with me and they were carrying hot dog and bread into a campsite for food and plan on hiking 12km out), but we end up needing to split firewood, so my hatchet did end up quite useful there.
That's the reason why I wanted to ask when do I really need an axe.
So what you guys are saying if I stick by well-used trails and don't bring/buy firelogs and pick my own off the ground, I probably won't need an axe, right? If so I'll keep that in mind next time.