Camping with guns

Rotte said:
Matt,

I used to think I wasn't afraid of bears. I've seen 'em in the wild many times. But I was once walking through some dense brush and smelled a funny smell. The little hairs stood up on the back of my neck and I didn't know why. Then I realized I was smelling bear. And I knew it was close but I didn't know where it was. But I did know I was scared.

I was holding a loaded .300WM in my hands at the time. If you claim you aren't scared of bears, I'm betting you haven't smelled one up close. Any animal that can kill you in a matter of seconds probably deserves a little respect.

Just sayin'....
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I am scared spitless of a few animals, bears are one. But ...

I think a lot of what's going on is that every time there's a guns in the outdoors topic, it devolves VERY rapidly to the most efficient way to kill all the rest of the bears in north america with handguns. With the idea that there's no other reason (other than killing everyone else on the trail) to have a firearm.
 
koyote said:
Matt-

I hear what you are saying. personally can't stand the ergos on glocks, so I don't shoot one. From what I understand, the 20 is accurate enough for small game work at 25 yards, but what are you going to eat out of what gets left behind? :D
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A real man can bark a squirrel from 50 yards with a .44 mag firing out of a 2" barrel.

Okay, okay, I'll go away now.

:D
 
koyote said:
I think a lot of what's going on is that every time there's a guns in the outdoors topic, it devolves VERY rapidly to the most efficient way to kill all the rest of the bears in north america with handguns. With the idea that there's no other reason (other than killing everyone else on the trail) to have a firearm.
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I fully agree. I guess i was just trying to clarify why I carry what I carry and that it wasnt for the above reasons.That just because a firearm was designed for combat doesnt mean it can be but to good use in the woods. I think we are agreeing just from a slightly different perspective.

I have a respect for bears, but the fear that one might get me isnt my the primary reason I carry a gun in the woods and I have bear in my neighborhood. Bears are a real factor even on a short afternoon hike or at times while at work. They arent some foriegn animal that I might encounter deep in the woods. It is something that is considered in lots of decisions from what gun I carry, to what dog I have, to how far I let my son get away from me on the trail. If I was rushed by a bear sure I would feel fear but I am not going to go around worrying about. Its not going to keep me inside. You know there are bears around and you take that into consideration. It still doesnt change the fact that I am usually the one doing the chasing. I also fully respect what a boar is capable of and I have friends how have got tagged by them but they were pursuing them. I really would love to be so lucky as to get rushed by wild pigs. I guess my point is that even when I go looking for trouble with these animals it can be hard to find. To me it is much more about interacting wiith nature than fearing it. I am just interacting with a horribly ugly gun made out of plastic.:D

I did get the heebee geebees one time when I followed this fresh pig sign for too long and had to walk back to my car in the dark. I had to pass right through were I had seen a Mt lion the day before. Still this was all due to me being the one out pursuing.

I freedive a lot in an area that is frequented by Great White sharks. Its part of diving up here. People who dont dive worry about them when drowning is way more likely. I dive with a speargun, it isnt for shark protection but if one gets to close its getting a sharp poke in the nose before it eats me.


Be well

Matt

Oh ya, Crocodiles scare the shit out of me.
 
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reconranger said:
My only motive for ever entering this thread, was to convince the original poster DavidO that he does indeed live in country that contains dangerous predators with 4 legs, not just 2, and he needs to arm himself accordingly. I know and appreciate his local conditions, where most of the rest of you are clearly oblivious. Believe it or not, Los Angeles is surrounded by mountains, that are full of bears and cats (and yes illegal pot farms)! There is a news story every week, about bears wondering down into neighborhoods in the foothills:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...utside-long-beach-aquarium-to-protest-bp.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/05/bear-hides-out-in-tree-near-oxnard-condo-complex.html (Those are palm trees in the picture dude!)

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/lion/attacks.html (Los Angeles, Orange, Santa Barbara, and San Diego Counties are all in So California. Source has not been updated since 2007.)

I look out my window at San Gorgonio mountain which is 11,500', and gets more snow than most places in the country....yet I am only a hour away from downtown Los Angeles. My local mountains: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=773346 (uh, that's a zoo bear) . I see more bears in a month than most of you will see in a lifetime (for simplicity, we'll just ignore all the years I lived in Alaska and British Columbia!). Most likely, most of you will only ever see bears or lions in ballgames....yet everyone from the Nevada desert to Australia, seems to be an expert on what to carry in bear country.......
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Stow your hostility, I asked the question out of curiosity on the number of bears in California no other reason.
 
Being that this seems to becoming a bit of a 'bear' of a thread I'll say this - agreeing with Rotte here, bears smell like crap (think: wet dog, dead stuff, really bad BO, and skunk rolled into one) - I know this because A: I've been around dead bears, and B: that was a smell I smelled a few days ago, just about the same time the dog went haywire and rocks started rolling down around us as Mr. Bear headed uphill on the scree slope as we rounded a bend in the fog...

Secondly; you can carry bear spray, a shotgun, a Glock 20 10mm, a .44 Mag SAA like I do, a Ruger 'Alaskan' in .454 Casull, or a battery-powered six-barrel mini-gun...it doesn't really much matter in bear country. An angry 300 to 800 lb bear coming out of the brush at 40 MPH is pretty much gonna stomp yer ass into the ground and chew on ya for a bit before leaving (if you're lucky)...

I'm under no illusion that I'll be able to get to my spray/gun/knife before my ass is aced, and I've already told the dog he's on his own. I only carry that stuff so my friends won't laugh too much when I'm written about in the paper saying I 'wasn't prepared'. And yes, the strap was off and my hand at the ready, but I honestly don't think that matters much at all.

If you look at those fog and tight trail pics I posted above, you have to remember that after a six mile drive up a narrow dirt (mud) road, a 1.5 mile hike uphill, and a 1.5 mile hike down hill, all in the rain and fog, I saw NO other people. I did however see bear poop, see a few bear scratch trees with fresh scratches, a DNA collection tree w/barbed wire and bear hair, smelled a bear, and heard a bear blazing up a hill in the fog...that's just one hike of many.

Simple fact is, stumbling up on a bear with carcass, in a berry patch, or with cubs and I'll be forked - and no amount of firepower or preparedness is gonna do me much good. Other'n that, the bear(s) will usually try and get out of the way. That said, each one is different and ya never know - especially on a narrow trail in the fog. Charging bears are insanely fast.

Just saying, you can be quick, alert, well-heeled, and a crack shot - but in (real) bear country, that means just about spit...so don't go thinking otherwise, lest you find yourself unprepared to be lunch... ;)
 
This article has an enlightening historical perspective on the "power" of handguns: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_51/ai_n14936913/

"During the last quarter of the 20th century, revolvers became more and more powerful beginning with the .454 Casull from Freedom Arms and custom revolvers chambered in the wildcat .475 and .500 Linebaughs. Now the barn doors have been thrown completely open and the horses are running wild. The .475 Linebaugh is now a factory cartridge and chambering. Smith & Wesson brought out the large X-frame .500 S&W Magnum and .460 Extreme. At the same time, S&W's line of lightweight Magnums would have seen them locked up for insanity a half-century ago. So in addition to having more powerful revolvers, we also have very light sixguns thanks to the use of titanium and scandium. What would Lucian Cary say today?"
 
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Melvin-Purvis said:
Being that this seems to becoming a bit of a 'bear' of a thread I'll say this - agreeing with Rotte here, bears smell like crap (think: wet dog, dead stuff, really bad BO, and skunk rolled into one) - I know this because A: I've been around dead bears, and B: that was a smell I smelled a few days ago, just about the same time the dog went haywire and rocks started rolling down around us as Mr. Bear headed uphill on the scree slope as we rounded a bend in the fog...

Secondly; you can carry bear spray, a shotgun, a Glock 20 10mm, a .44 Mag SAA like I do, a Ruger 'Alaskan' in .454 Casull, or a battery-powered six-barrel mini-gun...it doesn't really much matter in bear country. An angry 300 to 800 lb bear coming out of the brush at 40 MPH is pretty much gonna stomp yer ass into the ground and chew on ya for a bit before leaving (if you're lucky)...

I'm under no illusion that I'll be able to get to my spray/gun/knife before my ass is aced, and I've already told the dog he's on his own. I only carry that stuff so my friends won't laugh too much when I'm written about in the paper saying I 'wasn't prepared'. And yes, the strap was off and my hand at the ready, but I honestly don't think that matters much at all.

If you look at those fog and tight trail pics I posted above, you have to remember that after a six mile drive up a narrow dirt (mud) road, a 1.5 mile hike uphill, and a 1.5 mile hike down hill, all in the rain and fog, I saw NO other people. I did however see bear poop, see a few bear scratch trees with fresh scratches, a DNA collection tree w/barbed wire and bear hair, smelled a bear, and heard a bear blazing up a hill in the fog...that's just one hike of many.

Simple fact is, stumbling up on a bear with carcass, in a berry patch, or with cubs and I'll be forked - and no amount of firepower or preparedness is gonna do me much good. Other'n that, the bear(s) will usually try and get out of the way. That said, each one is different and ya never know - especially on a narrow trail in the fog. Charging bears are insanely fast.

Just saying, you can be quick, alert, well-heeled, and a crack shot - but in (real) bear country, that means just about spit...so don't go thinking otherwise, lest you find yourself unprepared to be lunch... ;)
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+1
I've spent A LOT of solo time in the sticks and desert.
An irate bear makes the toughest, meanest cop on the planet seem like a cute little squeaky toy.
Wild animals are sooooo very fast.
Sooooo fast.
Gotta respect the locals when you're in their territory.
Personally, I think that pepper spray is far more effective for most people in most critter situations. Aim isn't critical and you can put out a steady stream of fire air for them to suck down.
You also aren't filling the air with bullets unsure of where they'll cease their flights.
 
One other thing. I like guns. If Im in a convenient area , like my brothers land, Ill fire off a few rounds.

Talking about my brothers land, their have been a lot of trespassers there, committing arson , poaching, vandalizing and stealing. They got into my vehicle about four years ago and took everything of value including my knives. I have an idea who the perpetrators are , and they will be armed.
 
TS +1 on the bear spray :thumbup:

Recon, thanks for the link - that made for an interesting read.
 
i have a bunch of handguns, and i always go back to my glock 27.
i'm always looking for the "best" thing. . . and go through phases ( c'mon, you know. big knife, small knife, hatchet and folder, etc. right?)

and have done the "gotta have a 1911", "a 380 with me is better than a 45 in the pack" etc. logic. but the glock 27 always somehow ends up back on my belt.
 
This is a really good topic thread, great conversations going on minus the few argumentative responses but nevertheless very entertaining. All I can say is, California has guns even though it's not a very gun friendly state do not under estimate it's citizens in protecting themselves. And my camping gun is a Glock 26, it's dead reliable light weight, comfortable to carry, i can take a spill in the water and won't be concerned, in addition it's the OD version so it looks friendly when open carried. But after reading about the Glock 10mm responses I may consider a 10mm!
 
Glock26 said:
This is a really good topic thread, great conversations going on minus the few argumentative responses but nevertheless very entertaining. All I can say is, California has guns even though it's not a very gun friendly state do not under estimate it's citizens in protecting themselves. And my camping gun is a Glock 26, it's dead reliable light weight, comfortable to carry, i can take a spill in the water and won't be concerned, in addition it's the OD version so it looks friendly when open carried. But after reading about the Glock 10mm responses I may consider a 10mm!
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I can go to Turner's Outdoorsman any hour of any day of the week, and there will be a line of 5 folks picking up guns. Bad economy or not....there seem to be lots of folks willing to lay down $1-3K for an "assault rifle".

If one lives in a state that unfairly restricts CCW.....all the more reason to concentrate on handguns that are compact, light, and highly concealable! Read the section under "When Should I Carry My Gun": http://www.keepandbeararms.com/Puckett/firstgun.pdf
 
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.45's and .38's have been working just fine in California for the past 100 years.

I must have missed another memo.
 
if you already have a qualiity 1911 and handload, check out a .460 Rowland conversion... it provides a single action trigger, 9 rounds, relatively light weight, multiple carry options, with pretty serious ballistics
 
I read a test report on that 460 Rowland and it was pretty impressive. I haven't checked lately but you used to be able to get the kits from www.brownells.com.

DancesWithKnives
 
DavidO said:
When I was younger, I never thought of camping with a gun.
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Me neither. As a scout, I encountered plenty of bears in the woods. They all bolted once you made any sort of noise. We had one enter our campsite and all we did was bang pots together and they ran. Ditto when they raided the dumpsters by the mess hall.

Fact of the matter is, one of the items that Scoutmasters were supposed to delegate to an adult in the group was to make sure that no guns were brought along on trips. And if there was a shooting event, you better believe that there was a range master and strict supervision.

DavidO said:
But due to the present climate, I have strongly considered it.
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Honestly, I think the odds of being a crime victim while camping are quite low...it is certainly safer than in a city or town. That said, there have been incidents of domestic violence, killings by drug smugglers and random killings by vagabonds/serial killers.

Just like anywhere else, prevention is paramount. Be careful when approaching strangers, especially if you are off trail. Exercise judgement when entering someone else's campsite or inviting a stranger into yours. Keep anything that criminals would want to steal (like your rifle, your valuables, and your wallet) out of sight.

Attacks by dangerous wildlife are also pretty rare.

That said, fear of being attacked in the woods by man or beast is seriously overblown in most parts of the country -- but being safe and prepared, rather than being sorry seems pretty reasonable to me.

So, should you bring a firearm with you while camping, assuming that the rules of the area allow you to? I don't see any reason why not.

DavidO said:
What weapons, if any, would you recommend?
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Well, as with anything else involving camping or backpacking, weight and size are issues. As well as encounter distances. Plus, you want something that will have more than one purpose.

That's why I'd recommend a lightweight rifle in .308 or .30-06 -- Chuck Hawk has some interesting articles about mountain rifles that might fit the bill. Useful for self-defense, hunting, and engaging invading enemy troops.

A shotgun would be another good choice, since it is versatile. You can carry a balanced range of loads to deal with almost any survival situation: small shot size shells to shoot birds, squirrels, or rabbits; slugs to reach out and touch targets out to 100 yards ; and buckshot out to 25-50 yards for anti-personnel purposes.

I'd argue against the effectiveness of a handgun in most wilderness encounters. Hitting anything over 50 yards (heck, even under 25 yards) while under stress with a handgun is difficult. At least for me, I can aim and shoot a rifle more accurately than a handgun. That said, your mileage may vary, and the size/weight ration might make it a smart choice if you're a crack shot.

Of course, don't forget your camping knife.
 
a friend built one from Clark Custom Guns kit, don't know the distributor probably Brownells... we added an Ed Brown oversize firing pin stop with no radius just slight break to the edge, slightly overcentered foot lug cut to help retard opening...He's using a hard alloy with some trace copper (from lead free solder) to produce a tough monolithic slug with good cutting shoulder
 
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