Can a knife design be patented ?

[FOG2]

Or otherwise claimed as ones own ? So that royalties must be paid if its copied ?

I ask because i had an idea at 2am this morning for a design of knife that ive not seen before and i believe would be much sought after.

Now im wondering if it will still be a dam good idea, after i get some sleep.Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Thanks in advance for youre input.
.... Fog

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

This topic pops up about once a month.A search on it will deliver many hours of good reading.

The basic answer is -NO. It is possible that you have thought up a new idea .One that uses undiscovered concepts (a new opening system, a photon-antimatter bearing that has no friction,....), but the reality is that if it is Highly Desired ,it has been thought of and made before.

Then there is the cost and uncertainty of patent protection.
Finally, Assuming that you had a unique idea,....it was vastly popular,......you had the many millions to patent it, mass produce it, and market it,.....The Chinese would copy it and market it anyway. A patent is hard to protect on an item like a knife (After all, there are 100's of millions made every year).The most minor change in the knife will make the copy unattackable in court.

The best thing to do ,unless you are really talking about making many million knives, is to make the knife and advertise nit in the magazines and the Blade shows. Once the knife becomes known as your concept, it will always be associated with you.Terry Graham's "Razel" knives are copied by some makers, but everyone credits him and his brother with the original.He has a trademark on them. Even if it becomes a very popular style, you will always be selling ,"The Original Foggy Knife".If yours is better than the cheaper copy, many will buy yours.

Plan "B" ,if you aren't interested in becoming a manufacturer, is to copywrite the knife pattern, and take it to a big manufacturer. William Henry makes a lot of knives designed by other makers.
Stacy

 

[tmickley]

This topic pops up about once a month.A search on it will deliver many hours of good reading.

The basic answer is -NO. It is possible that you have thought up a new idea .One that uses undiscovered concepts (a new opening system, a photon-antimatter bearing that has no friction,....), but the reality is that if it is Highly Desired ,it has been thought of and made before.

Then there is the cost and uncertainty of patent protection.
Finally, Assuming that you had a unique idea,....it was vastly popular,......you had the many millions to patent it, mass produce it, and market it,.....The Chinese would copy it and market it anyway. A patent is hard to protect on an item like a knife (After all, there are 100's of millions made every year).The most minor change in the knife will make the copy unattackable in court.

The best thing to do ,unless you are really talking about making many million knives, is to make the knife and advertise nit in the magazines and the Blade shows. Once the knife becomes known as your concept, it will always be associated with you.Terry Graham's "Razel" knives are copied by some makers, but everyone credits him and his brother with the original.He has a trademark on them. Even if it becomes a very popular style, you will always be selling ,"The Original Foggy Knife".If yours is better than the cheaper copy, many will buy yours.

Plan "B" ,if you aren't interested in becoming a manufacturer, is to copywrite the knife pattern, and take it to a big manufacturer. William Henry makes a lot of knives designed by other makers.
Stacy

one of the best answers to this question I've seen in some time...

 

[FOG2]

Okey doke, thanks for the info.

 

[KenOnion]

I highly disagree with the responses to this question. If you have a great design and you truely believe it to be patentable and desireable I highly recomend a patent search which will determine if it has been patented befor or not and then decide if you are going to go for a design patent , utility patent or provisional patent.
If I would have listened to the advice of the nay sayers when I invented the Speed Safe and didn't patent it where would I be today? Imagine if Michael Walker patented the Liner Lock he would be on easy street. He was setting on a gold mine and didn't patent it and although many give him credit for the invention no one pays him to use it. Some give him a pat on the back and say thank you but at the end of the day that don't pay the bills.
This is a call you have to make . If you truely believe in this concept and feel strongly that it is unique ,new and highly desireable . Then by all means Patent it.Learn from the successes and or missed opportunities of others Otherwise your gonna get ripped off and have to compete against yourself while the freeloaders bogart your technology. If you don't know how to start give me a call.

Stacy and Tracy , I don't know how many patents you guys have or what your story is but thats some bad advice guys.

FOG2, There are still many opportunities and advancements still to be discovered in this industry. Don't be afraid to take chances. Follow your passions, Patents arn't that expensive or difficult to obtain. Build a prototype ,perfect your concept , test it thoroughly ,and if you still feel it is a winner. Patent it ! Don't tell anyone about it without a non disclosure agreement , not even your best buddy untill your patent is secure.
I hope this helps.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Ken,
I have great respect for your success and innovations.
I agree that there are examples of makers who have obtained a patent and made a lot of money. You are an excellent example of those folks. There are countless other patent holders who have developed and obtained patents who have little more than the government papers and the canceled checks to show for it.
You have also gone the route that I suggested and have name brand manufacturers develop and manufacture your designs. This puts a lot of the financial burden on them, not you.

These ideas usually don't come at 2AM and develop while staying up all night.They are usually the result of making a product, testing it, improving the concept and finally coming up with a desirable and workable prototype.

I don't know FOG2, an he has no profile filled out to help form an answer to his question(Hint,hint - fill out your profile, FOG2), so he could be anything from a teen age student, to a NASA engineer. I would think the question would have been posed different if he was a technical person,though.That is why I addressed the answer the way I did.

I have been involved with several patent developments, and am aware of the cost and time involved. No disrespect intended,Ken, but saying -make a prototype ,do a patent search, and patent it- is a bit like saying to make a knife - find some steel,shape it like a knife, make it hard, and stick a handle on it-. A bit oversimplified, unless you are going to pay someone else to do all the work.

FOG2 - If you truly believe in your idea, do as Ken suggests. I would certainly take him up on his offer to give guidance,too. He has been there and made a success of the process.
I did not mean to douse your fire. Best of luck if you decide to proceed.

Stacy

 

[Nathan Gould]

whatever you do DON'T TELL ANYONE WHAT IT IS, not your friends, family, boss, whoever, keep it to yourself until you've decided what to do, if you want it patented, but you've gone and told someone else, they could get their patent application in and approved before yours

 

[Bailey Knives]

I dont own any patents, so take this for what it is worth. I think if you have an idea for a new mechanism on a knife ie. speed safe mechanism, then go ahead and patent it. If you are looking to patent a knife shape, things become more difficult. Knives have been around for thousands of years and most shapes that you can think of have already been done. You can still go for a patent, but it may be more difficult.

 

[brokenbrains]

If you leak your idea early, the problem won't likely be someone else filing similar patents ahead of you. Rather, if after filing yours, a competitor wants to copy your idea, and he can prove your idea was in public domain before you filed, you're boned.

Pretty much everything you need to know can be found at the Patent Office website. It's mostly in simple english. The legalese comes when you're actually writing the thing up.

 

[btboone]

Most people have no idea what a patent costs or what's involved in protecting it. If the idea isn't worth $100,000 fighting it in court, it probably is best to do it another way. I think Bladsmth's advice would suit 98% of the people thinking a patent will be the end all answer. A lot of the same stuff can be handled with licensing agreements. For some things, it is the best answer; for most others, it's expensive tuition in the School of Hard Knocks. I've been around patents for a long time. I have 18 patents and more pending. Luckily, I didn't have to pay for most of those. Some of those really pulled their weight. Others did not.

 

[KnghtWalkr]

Something that you might like to know Fog2. This is applicable only in the united states. You should keep good records or proof of when you invented this idea/product. Also produce it fast and sell it. You then have one year to make the money needed to pay for that patent. For that first year you are protected for the most part. After that year it's up for grabs so I've been told.

I have one patent, but it is a design patent cost me about 1,8oo. Just protects the aesthetics of a design.

Prices vary just like most law services.

Good Luck

 

[Tim-Gabz]

Yes is the broad answer.

The hitches:

Originallity.

Any common features with other patients muddy any civil suits and make it easier for defendants to drag out the issue costing you $$$$

Several new ideas in one patent may create an incomplete legal picture to a judge.

The wider the patent the easier it is to make a small but significant change to nullify the patient. The history of handguns in USA is a great example of this.

The patiented design works.

I would go for copyrighting an overall design yet each small new and significant feature you patient independantly.

Remember to each problem there are many people considering various similar or very different solutions and they may come up with the goods before you. So if you are going to do it, do it now.

 

[FOG2]

Sorry i havent responded sooner but i had a computer crash and just now got the new one working.


THANKS for all the info. I have a lot to think about now.

I was told by someone that unless you have the money for Lawyers, to protect and fight infringements that a patent is useless. I DONT KNOW how true this is,but it sounds logical.

THANKS again,FOG

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

Give Ken Onion a call , that man's mind never stops working !

Having had the pleasure of having dinner and conversation with him numerous times , I can asure you , the call will be worth it ten times over

 

[KenOnion]

Sorry i havent responded sooner but i had a computer crash and just now got the new one working.


THANKS for all the info. I have a lot to think about now.

I was told by someone that unless you have the money for Lawyers, to protect and fight infringements that a patent is useless. I DONT KNOW how true this is,but it sounds logical.

THANKS again,FOG

Yup, Thats true unless you can get an attorney to work on a contigency basis. Buy you could also make alot of money and not be infringed.(Glass half empty or half full.) It's all up to you and how much you believe in your concept. If you don't have enough faith in your concept then by all means don't patent it . You could make alot of money so that by the time you are infringed you can afford to defend your patent . You could possably sell your patent to a company for a profit and let them worry about defending it . You could possably even get a contract with a company and lisence your invention to them and have them defend it as part of the agreement .
It all depends on how good your concept is and if you believe in it enough to invest in it. There are no guarantees!

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Ken, Thanks for more input. That was part of my basic point.

FOG2:
I certainly don't want you to reveal any details about your idea, but what general area is the idea in. It may help with the advise of how to protect it.

A new knife shape ( Ken Onion-Leek, Drop Point hunter, etc.)
A new engineering feature ( liner lock,ball bearing pivot, palm release, etc.)
A new blade style ( sheepsfoot, farriers, Razele, etc.)
A new feature on the knife (gut hook, can opener, glass breaker, etc.)
A new material ( ceramic, stellite, carbon fiber, etc.)
A new gimmick add-on ( flashlight, GPS locater beacon, flotation handle, etc.)
A new handle style/material (glow-in-the-dark, piquant, inlaid with the owners initials, etc.)
Something never thought of before

If you think it is truly novel ( not just an improvement), you should write down your idea, with sketches ( they can be very basic), sign and date it.Have a trusted friend witness it ( best not a direct relative). If you want to be very detailed, have it notarized, to prove the date. This may be very useful in protecting the idea, if it comes to that. This is always the first step in any copyright or patent.

Stacy

 

[KenOnion]

Ken, Thanks for more input. That was part of my basic point.

FOG2:
I certainly don't want you to reveal any details about your idea, but what general area is the idea in. It may help with the advise of how to protect it.

A new knife shape ( Ken Onion-Leek, Drop Point hunter, etc.)
A new engineering feature ( liner lock,ball bearing pivot, palm release, etc.)
A new blade style ( sheepsfoot, farriers, Razele, etc.)
A new feature on the knife (gut hook, can opener, glass breaker, etc.)
A new material ( ceramic, stellite, carbon fiber, etc.)
A new gimmick add-on ( flashlight, GPS locater beacon, flotation handle, etc.)
A new handle style/material (glow-in-the-dark, piquant, inlaid with the owners initials, etc.)
Something never thought of before

If you think it is truly novel ( not just an improvement), you should write down your idea, with sketches ( they can be very basic), sign and date it.Have a trusted friend witness it ( best not a direct relative). If you want to be very detailed, have it notarized, to prove the date. This may be very useful in protecting the idea, if it comes to that. This is always the first step in any copyright or patent.

Stacy

Thanks for the clarity Stacy , I thought that was your point. I just wanted to give FOG the benefit of a doubt and in the event his concept is unique and practical, I didn't want to shit in his shoes. Now he has heard the pros and cons and can roll the dice if he so chooses. And do his own research.

 

[btboone]

The www.uspto.gov website is a great place to start. This is where you can search through patents by subject, inventor, catagory, and other means. I've recently been doing research on the aerodynamics of tractor trailers, and sure enough, I found a patent on something very similar to what I was working on. Patents by their nature must explain in graphic detail what else is out there, called the Prior Art, exactly how their invention is made, and why it's better than stuff that's come before. You can learn a whole lot about a subject seeing that those guys have been immersed in precisely those problems for years. You can then easily see if what you have is a major step ahead of what they were working on or pretty similar to what's been done. It's amazing to see how many people had similar ideas to what you have. There still may be advantages unforseen by them that your invention can fill. I still have a few cards up my sleeve on the aerodynamic thing.

Another thing to be aware of is you can see patent applications before the patents even issue. There's a separate search for those. There's some really great information there for those with the initiative to search through it.