Can Makers Challenge Collectors

joshsmith

joshsmith

Joined
Mar 31, 2005
Messages
646
With all this talk of whether or not makers knives should be "critiqued" I'd like to know something. I have no problem with people offering a fair assessment of their opinion. But when someone makes a comment that doesn't seem to make sense or is just flat wrong they should be challenged. Here's the questions.

Is it o.k. for a maker to ask someone posting comments what their qualification is? How many custom knives do they own? Why is it that we should value your opinion? How many knives do they own, have they been to a show, or have they even held a custom knife. Or do we just let them post a comment without a challenge.

I don't think you have to have a large collection of knives to offer up good opinions but at times people post comments that just makes no sense.

Would you as a collector be offended if asked these questions because lets be honest, with screen names we don't know who most of you are? I would have to imagine the maker may come off looking defensive when that is not in fact the case.

I think a suitable response from the person commenting would be, I collect a few knives, here's a picture of one, I've been to a show or two, and this is my passion. I have to imagine that most of the guys saying ignorant things would not respond.

If you're going to critique my knives then I might like to know what basis you are doing your critiquing. I love feedback and am willing to take a beating without if bothering me too bad, but am I out of line asking my own questions.

This is a hypothetical. I haven't had this problem but I've seen it with other makers work.
 
Let me be clear. When I say challenge I mean in a positive way. Not in a degrading personal way like some have done. I don't want this thread to turn into another train wreck. That's not the intention.
 
I can't in good faith call myself either a maker or collector, so take this for what it's worth... However, regardless of the way this thread goes, I note that when listing questions about "qualifications", there was nothing about knife USE. I find that puzzling. Without a base of knowledge on using lots of knives for a myriad of applications, the only conversations that can be had will involve fit & finish, and personal taste in aesthetics/style of design and materials.
 
If the primary objective is to make better knives, then I'd say
evaluate each criticism/suggestion on it's own merrit, and make
use of them as appropriate.
 
Josh, I had already stated the way I personally feel about this issue in
the other thread...
For all it is worth, here it is again:

"There are times when I FEEL that a knife posted is made and finished
to a shape and design that appeals to me.
But on the other hand, as my interest lies in a different discipline of
custom knives, I hold back and say nothing.

The same happens when I do not like what I see. BUT, here, I do not feel
competent and knowledgeable enough to post an opinion.

...To sum it up, there is nothing wrong with critiquing, one just has to
know enough to do this and do it with a pure heart".

There are many fields where I am competent enough to voice a serious
critique but I usually use tact and more tact when using email or the Forums....
One on one and face to face is a completely different story!

All the best,
David
 
I don't know about challenging - it's a bit circular. My point is, if collector A gives the feedback to maker B that they don't like, say, the way the maker chose to make the choil, then the maker can just think whether this makes sense (useful comment) or doesn't (useless comment), and leave it at that.

The only case when a challenge might be in order is if someone says "collectors don't like brass".

On a side note, one thing that you makers should absolutelly encourage is help collectors understand how knives are made. Nothing has helped me as much as to take a couple knife making class and attend a couple hammer-ins.
 
Josh,

Whatever floats your boat is fine as long as the comments are polite.

P
 
joshsmith said:
Is it o.k. for a maker to ask someone posting comments what their qualification is? How many custom knives do they own? Why is it that we should value your opinion? How many knives do they own, have they been to a show, or have they even held a custom knife. Or do we just let them post a comment without a challenge.
Click to expand...

I don't have any issue with someone wanting to know my qualifications and would take no offence, but I think some of these questions are poorly conceived. Consider:

  • the number of knives in one's collection reveals little or nothing. Some collectors endlessly accumulate and have many knives. Others maintain an equilibrium - a relatively constant number of knives - 20, 50, whatever - selling some as others come in. Two collectors may have bauoght the same amount of knives over the same amount of time, but one has vastly more knives because he keeps them all. Is he more knowledgable? Does he know more about the secondary market than the collector who has tested it from the selller side many times over?
  • you don't HAVE to value the opnion of any collector, regardless of their "qualifications".
  • while qualifications arguably underlie the validity of a CRITIQUE, what qualifications are required for someone to have an OPINION? How many knives does one have to own before they can say they don't like sheephorn? How many shows do they need to attend before they are qualified to say they don't like brass guards?

To my mind, the better approach is that if you receive a criticism which you think simply doesn't make sense - confront that issue directly with that person. Explain why, in your view, it doesn't make sense and challenge them to support their view with something more than a conclusory observation. This will likely advance the discussion further than a tangential inquiry into what they got and where they been.

Roger
 
That sounds fair to me Josh.

I don't really fit into the category of collector. If I were to categorize myself in regard to handmade knives, I'd say I'm more of an admirer and enthusiast. I'm also a user, in that I can't afford to spend a lot of money on a knife that I'm just going to fondle and look at, I HAVE to put it to work, (I build trails). As such, any feedback I'd provide would reflect my own situation, which isn't like 'art critic' or anything fancy pants.
 
Rather than one person asking another for their resume as it relates to handling or owning knives a more constructive and diplomatic way to respond could be to say

I did this part in this way because....

or

My experience has been that customers like ABC rather than XYZ....

If the other party then wants to engage in discussion then it'll go that way. If not, it just won't prepetuate itself any further. When you're talking about someone else's subjective opinion, even if you think it's dead wrong, getting into a pissing contest about who has what qualifications doesn't strike me as the best way to resolve anything.
 
I welcome any maker to confront me at any time about my comments. If I post that there is something about a knife that I don't care for, the maker has every right to set me straight, if there is a reason for why the knife was made that way. It would be a learning experience for me. I should no more get angry at the maker for questioning my qualifications, than the maker should get angry at my honest evaluation of a knife. However, the maker probably shouldn't phrase it in this way, "Just who the hell are you to criticize the way I make knives. If you've never made one yourself then you don't have a clue what you're talking about."
 
I would have no problem either with a maker challenging my opinion of his work as long as he demonstrates the same delivery of such as I did in my opinion.

IMO, everyone (expert or novice) is entitled to their opinion as long as is presented correctly.
 
My first post should have had use as a qualification. In fact I wrote it and then cut it to move it and never repasted it. My fault. That's number one.

I agree in that I probably wouldn't challenge a collector just from the fear of having it look like I was being too defensive or unwilling to accept input. But I have seen makers taken to task on some of their work where I thought they could have turned some of the questions back on the person asking questions of them.

The questions above are good. In the interest of full disclosure I didn't put tons of thought or time into wording my questions so I appreciate your input.
 
I am not the most experienced or knowledgeable collector. I have much to learn. However, if I took the time to critique a makers work I think its only fair that they have an opportunity to ask you these questions. Of course both parties should be respectful and play fair.
 
One thing to remember, Josh. These collectors are potentially putting money into your pocket. :)
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I welcome any maker to confront me at any time about my comments. If I post that there is something about a knife that I don't care for, the maker has every right to set me straight, if there is a reason for why the knife was made that way. It would be a learning experience for me. I should no more get angry at the maker for questioning my qualifications, than the maker should get angry at my honest evaluation of a knife. However, the maker probably shouldn't phrase it in this way, "Just who the hell are you to criticize the way I make knives. If you've never made one yourself then you don't have a clue what you're talking about."
Click to expand...

Perfectly stated, Keith! :thumbup:


I don't take part in online "critiques" (except for the occasional comments about design elements, for which all I need are my eyes). I simply can't make a "critique" of any physical object without actually holding it in my hands and feeling the weight, examining the finish, etc. However, when I am at a show and I can actually hold a knife, any negative comment I might make - no matter how slight - will always be made to the maker in private.

My work is "critiqued" by editors, publishers, and proofreaders all the time - but they don't have to actually handle a paper manuscript to make those critiques.

I accord every maker the respect of applauding his home runs out loud and commiserating with him on his strike-outs in private.
 
This is exactly how I would handle it if I were to have a critique. I wouldn't do it on an open forum. Part of it is my own self conscience because I think to myself, "why the heck would they care what I think".

However I think the open critiques are a part of the forums that make it what it is, a forum. Though I won't do it openly I don't begrudge those who do. And again I think the makers posting their pictures should be ready for it. However if the person doing the questioning or commenting is brave enough to post his comments he should be man enough to have the questions turned back on him, to a degree. This would never happen to Keith, cockroach, or most others because they won't put themselves in the situation to be questioned publicly.

Danbo, I would hope I could debate the person giving the critiques in a way that would not offend him to the point he wouldn't want one of my knives. Instead I would hope to do it in a way that he'd gain a respect for me or my work and actually like me more. I don't think the situation would have to be hostile. Depends on how it's handled.
 
joshsmith said:
This is exactly how I would handle it if I were to have a critique. I wouldn't do it on an open forum. Part of it is my own self conscience because I think to myself, "why the heck would they care what I think".

However I think the open critiques are a part of the forums that make it what it is, a forum. Though I won't do it openly I don't begrudge those who do. And again I think the makers posting their pictures should be ready for it. However if the person doing the questioning or commenting is brave enough to post his comments he should be man enough to have the questions turned back on him, to a degree. This would never happen to Keith, cockroach, or most others because they won't put themselves in the situation to be questioned publicly.

Danbo, I would hope I could debate the person giving the critiques in a way that would not offend him to the point he wouldn't want one of my knives. Instead I would hope to do it in a way that he'd gain a respect for me or my work and actually like me more. I don't think the situation would have to be hostile. Depends on how it's handled.
Click to expand...

I agree Josh that open critique is what makes forums what they are and believe the fact that many participants on forums are unknown contribute to the harsh, rude and uninformed critique that we see.

I often wonder if forum participant's comments would be the same if their real names were at the top of their post?
 
joshsmith said:
"....This would never happen to Keith, cockroach, or most others because they won't put themselves in the situation to be questioned publicly...."
Click to expand...

That's so wrong it's not even funny :mad:.

I can't speak for the others, but I said that I would critique only design elements in an open forum - and if I do that, I look forward to the maker challenging my opinion. And an opinion is all it is, even in that arena. If I say "black" and the maker says "white" and then explains to me why "white" might be the correct answer, I'll be the first to admit my opinion was based on too little information.

I have seen too many "critique" threads with opinions like "Gee, that looks like it would be a great user!" or "Wow, the fit and finish looks superb!" All based on a photograph. I feel that I can comment (critique) only on what I have some expertise in - and on what I know through actual experience. That is the reason I don't get drawn into these threads.

For instance, if I were to critique an Ed Fowler knife - never having actually handled one - I would probably post something like "Man, that is butt-ugly. It looks like it would be very difficult to work with."

I will leave opinions like that to you "experts". :)

(FWIW, I spent over 35 years being questioned only publicly about my opinion - an opinion on which my entire livelihood depended. And yes, Kevin, my real name is at the bottom of every post.)
 
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