can someone explain this popular advice?

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SkinnyJoe

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I run into the statement "never tell a cop you're carrying a knife for self-defense" a lot, yet the people who are behind it do not elaborate, as to WHY.

Questions:

1)Is this good advice, and if so, why?

2)If it is, does it apply to all knives, including the ones that are perfectly legal (blade length/opening mechanism) to carry in given locale?

3)Is self-defense a right in the US? Simple yes or no will be sufficient.

4)If it is, is the intent to defend one self a right as well?

5)Are those who carry pistols, stun-guns, and pepper sprays also advised to say that those items are not for self-defense? Why or why not?

6) Is "looking for trouble" same as being prepared for self defense to some people? What does the law say?

Thanks.
 
SkinnyJoe said:
I run into the statement "never tell a cop you're carrying a knife for self-defense" a lot, yet the people who are behind it do not elaborate, as to WHY.

Questions:

1)Is this good advice, and if so, why?
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depends on the circumstances by which a police officer discovered the knife.

if you are carrying an illegal knife and are arrested for an unrelated crime, expect to be charged with the weapon violation.

if you say it is a weapon, you may have introduced criminal intent. whether specific or general, intent is a required element in any crime. but saying a legally carried knife is for self defense or a weapon does not, in and of itself, make it illegal.

personally, if the knife is legal and is being carried legally, i could care less about the reasons behind its carry.

2)If it is, does it apply to all knives, including the ones that are perfectly legal (blade length/opening mechanism) to carry in given locale?
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again, depends.

3)Is self-defense a right in the US? Simple yes or no will be sufficient.
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in various forms, it is indeed a right.

4)If it is, is the intent to defend one self a right as well?
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are you referring to carrying a weapon with the sole intention of providing a self defense tool?

i dont know of any law that specifically states one may carry a weapon to defend one's self.

but i would say it is a de facto right.

5)Are those who carry pistols, stun-guns, and pepper sprays also advised to say that those items are not for self-defense? Why or why not?
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carrying a pistol requires a permit. therefore it is understood in a legal sense that said weapon is for self defense.

6) Is "looking for trouble" same as being prepared for self defense to some people? What does the law say?

Thanks.
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maybe. some people will say you should flee no matter what. some say you should stand your ground no matter what.

the majority are somewhere in between. the circumstances specific to an incident will determine whether a course of action is objectively reasonable.

btw, i am not a lawyer. i dont mean to give legal advice. though i do have a working understanding of various weapons laws. hope i helped.
 
Many states have different laws and as far as I know all states allow for self defense, however how you are allowed to defend yourself is a wide open issue among the states. In NY if you carry anything as a weapon then you are exhibitng intent to use that object as a weapon. There are a few items that are allowed to be carried for self defense ( a licensed pistol and mace), but most other items must be there for another reason and pressed into use for self defense during an emerency. A baseball bat under your car seat with no glove or ball around is a weapon, but a bat, ball and glove in the back seat is not. Don't be fooled into thinking that NY is very bad. I have read the wording of the weapons laws of several states, in which you can easily buy and carry a handgun, but having a knife or several other items is considered "going armed" or some other term and is a crime.
Personally I do believe it is wrong that some one can't carry an item for use as a weapon if need for self defense, but most states do have this sort of wording in their laws. Often in the more rural areas it may not be enforced, but if you look at the laws accross the USA you will find the " Right to bear arms" has taken a beating over the years , even where hand gun owner ship may have recently been made easier. Do not say a knife is a weapon and you will be a far better off. I will say in NY the question is often asked " do you have any weapons in the car" during a traffic stop, is far more often the question asked.
 
The main idea behind this idea of intent, which for some reason is put into most knife carry laws throughout the US. Many states have an outright ban on "Deadly weapons." The proverbial "rub" obviously being the question: What entails a deadly weapon. Again, depending on the state, that which would define a knife as a deadly weapon may be as little as intent. Carrying a knife to use for self defense, especially when making a statement of intent such as "I'm carrying it for self defense officer!", is carrying a de jure deadly weapon. As such you may be committing an illegal act.
Such being the case one can easily avoid committing an illegal act by simply changing one's stated intent when carrying a knife. This is most easily done by carrying a more innocent knife rather than (I hate to keep on picking on his product but...) the Jim Wagner Reality Based Blade. It is quite doubtful that one would carry a reality based blade to open boxes, but a Spyderco endura on the other hand looks innocent enough.

That being said I can understand where you're coming from. When I first discovered this I had the same thoughts myself. Do I not have the right to defend myself? And you do. If someone attacks you, you have every right to defend yourself. This does not grant one the right to carry a weapon in the interest of self defense however. (I think it does, but welcome to America's legal system.) The powers that be have decided that the interest of public safety outweighs the interest of personal safety. The idea being that if we have less guns and less knives we have greater public safety.
Bullshit? I think so. The law? Depending on where you live...you bet your ass.
 
Excellent answer Reffy. That about said it all. Never say you are carrying a legal tool for self defense, you may have just turned it into an illegal weapon in the eyes of the law. Your mileage may vary.

Best regard,

Argyll
 
Thanks for all the useful and thorough answers.

Quick follow-up:

Cop "do you have any weapons in the car"?

Best answer?

1) Not really, just a folding knife. Feel free to take a look at it.
2) No, Sir.
3) Yes, a knife.
4) I would like to speak to an attorney first.
5 ?

I am leaning towards "1"
 
Unfortunately, the answer is not so simple.
If an officer asks if you have any weapons in car you answer:
"no"
If an officer wants to search your cars you answer:
"Sorry officer but I don't consent to searches of my car."
If an officer wants to search you (your person) he almost definitely has the right to. This is justified because it helps guarantees officer safety. Such being the case you should say the following before he searches you and even better before you step out of the car.
"I don't have any weapons officer, but I do have a pocket knife that I always carry/ carry for my job/fishing/hunting. It may be construed as a weapon and I want to give it up voluntarily."

Remember to be polite and respectful, it goes along way. They are just doing job! most of them anyway...
 
My approach is to 1) know the law, 2) comply with the law, and 3) screw anyone, including the police, who do not like it.

Being an attorney for 16 years helps. :)
 
Never tell them anything. Many cops are clueless or NY style corrupt, and will be looking for any excuse to harass you.
 
Reffy said:
Unfortunately, the answer is not so simple.
If an officer asks if you have any weapons in car you answer:
"no"
If an officer wants to search your cars you answer:
"Sorry officer but I don't consent to searches of my car."
If an officer wants to search you (your person) he almost definitely has the right to. This is justified because it helps guarantees officer safety. Such being the case you should say the following before he searches you and even better before you step out of the car.
"I don't have any weapons officer, but I do have a pocket knife that I always carry/ carry for my job/fishing/hunting. It may be construed as a weapon and I want to give it up voluntarily."

Remember to be polite and respectful, it goes along way. They are just doing job! most of them anyway...
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Excellent. Thanks. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
SkinnyJoe said:
I run into the statement "never tell a cop you're carrying a knife for self-defense" a lot, yet the people who are behind it do not elaborate, as to WHY.

Questions:

1)Is this good advice, and if so, why?

2)If it is, does it apply to all knives, including the ones that are perfectly legal (blade length/opening mechanism) to carry in given locale?

3)Is self-defense a right in the US? Simple yes or no will be sufficient.

4)If it is, is the intent to defend one self a right as well?

5)Are those who carry pistols, stun-guns, and pepper sprays also advised to say that those items are not for self-defense? Why or why not?

6) Is "looking for trouble" same as being prepared for self defense to some people? What does the law say?

Thanks.
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The questions you ask are brilliant in my view and should be asked much more frequently of our elected officials. Sadly, they are never asked and will never be answered by them.

The trampling of individual rights in exchange for the perception of public safety is misguided, ineffectual and sinister in purpose. The REAL reason behind it is to make the populace less threatening to the government, to make them easier to control, and to foster the mentality that the need for self-reliance and self-defense is unnecessary. Just another way to make us dependent upon government for a basic human need, in this case, the right to defend oneself or one's family. And remember, we pay for this trampling of our rights with our hard earned tax dollars. :mad:

A tired rant, I know, but one that flies out from time to time. :o
 
Reffy said:
If an officer wants to search you (your person) he almost definitely has the right to. This is justified because it helps guarantees officer safety.
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No he doesn't. Reread the 4th Amendment.

Probable Cause and "Terry Frisk" can trump this, but this requires you doing something suspicious, not necessarily even what you're being questioned for in the first place. Simply admitting to having a pocket knife isn't enough cause for him to search your entire person. Remove the knife (or have him remove it), but beyond that, you have the right to be secure in your person against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Remember folks, when you give up your rights, they get taken away easier.
 
Planterz said:
No he doesn't. Reread the 4th Amendment.

Probable Cause and "Terry Frisk" can trump this, but this requires you doing something suspicious, not necessarily even what you're being questioned for in the first place. Simply admitting to having a pocket knife isn't enough cause for him to search your entire person. Remove the knife (or have him remove it), but beyond that, you have the right to be secure in your person against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Remember folks, when you give up your rights, they get taken away easier.
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I never said that having a knife justified the search. Or admitting possession of a knife justified the search.

However I did say that if an officer choses to search your person he will most likely have the right to. An officer only requires "Reasonable Suspicion" to frisk, which is garnered extremely easily. If he asks you to step out of the car so he can frisk you, you can safely assume he most likely has the right to do so.

If you disagree and feel that he does not have the right to search you...let him search anyway. Realistically, what are you going to say? If you feel he violated your rights get a lawyer and write down a detailed account of what you felt happened. But if an officer asks you to do something, do it. Complain about it in court.

That being said, indeed...
Probable cause applies to searches of your car, a search of your person for weapons does not require probable cause. Don't give consent to a search if the officer asks you. That is your right. The question may come in guised form "You wouldn't mind if I looked around would you?
 
In Tennessee it is illegal to carry "with the intent to go armed". Wouldn't be smart here to say you are carrying for self defense.
 
Reffy said:
I never said that having a knife justified the search. Or admitting possession of a knife justified the search.

However I did say that if an officer choses to search your person he will most likely have the right to. An officer only requires "Reasonable Suspicion" to frisk, which is garnered extremely easily. If he asks you to step out of the car so he can frisk you, you can safely assume he most likely has the right to do so.

If you disagree and feel that he does not have the right to search you...let him search anyway. Realistically, what are you going to say? If you feel he violated your rights get a lawyer and write down a detailed account of what you felt happened. But if an officer asks you to do something, do it. Complain about it in court.

That being said, indeed...
Probable cause applies to searches of your car, a search of your person for weapons does not require probable cause. Don't give consent to a search if the officer asks you. That is your right. The question may come in guised form "You wouldn't mind if I looked around would you?
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a search for weapons is easily articulated. but it is limited to weapons, and not other contraband.

the highlighted portion is widely considered a poor way to seek consent. the ambiguity of the phrase is obvious and the answer, whether yes or no, can be interpreted as giving consent.

"no i dont mind." or "yes you may." there is no correct answer to that question unless your intent is to consent to the search.

"is it ok if i look?" is a much better way to seek consent, and officers should phrase the request so no ambiguity exists regarding the answer.
 
If you are carrying a knife that is legal in your area, then you are not carrying a weapon. Therefore, you do not need any reason to carry it!

The correct answer is to ask why you are being asked.

Refusing to be searched during a traffic stop is not probable case for a search. There has been a Supreme Court decision giving confirmation of this.

Some useful info:

http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=67&Itemid=1
 
Rat Finkenstein said:
Never tell them anything. Many cops are clueless or NY style corrupt, and will be looking for any excuse to harass you.
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MORIMOTOM said:
have you been watching "the shield" again????
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Never seen it.

Most cops are not knife nuts, and many are clueless. They will be seen comparing the blade to their hand width, measuring and remeasuring- (This happened to a guy I know) They didn't even know the laws, they were just trying their best to come up with an infraction.

Then you have the NYC Gestapo who can and will declare practically any folding knife a "gravity knife."

My point is, why would anyone take a chance of getting harassed by announcing to a total stranger, information that is none of their business to begin with.
 
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