Can someone help me decide what Sharpmaker and stones I should buy today?

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thank you so much, man, you are a wealth of information. Yeah, man, I was reading something like that, that you essentially have to give a Scandi a microbevel to sharpen it on the SM. I'm debating learning on a cheaper alum oxide stone, while maintaining on the sharpmaker, while deciding on a full sharpener.

Also, none of my knives are dull, maybe a couple of old Chinese ones. My PM2s (keep going back to this because it is my most varied platform in terms of steel and I like the pattern) are everywhere from absolutely 100%, to "Well, you can tell someone made some cuts with it, but it's still sharp and ready to take to work if you need", no dullness, no cracking, on any steel worth mentioning. So they are all presumably good to strop. I was thinking about ordering some 1 micron diamond paste. Would you say that is a good strop-all? I wonder if one strop will handle things like soft carbon steel without being too abrasive, and also the heavier steels. I haven't had much luck with my green compound so far.

Yes, I will be definitely wanting something for my high wear steels as soon as I know what I am doing with the SM
And am looking seriously at a Wicked Edge

1-micron diamond paste is pretty popular as a universal stropping option. Being diamond, it still cuts any steel very efficiently - and at the relatively small grit size, it's not necessarily too aggressive for most any steel. Green compound, on the other hand, would struggle to refine high-wear steels very well, as it's not hard enough to handle the carbides in those steels. But for something like an Opinel, green would work well for that and for other knives in similar steels of carbon or low-alloy stainless (Opinel's XC90, 1095, CV, 420HC, etc.).

My own preferences for stropping are heavily biased toward doing it very minimally, if it's done with any compound at all. I tend to favor the slicing aggression left in the edge exactly as it comes off the stone. So, for any stropping I do, I use it mainly just to clean up the burrs and their remnants, without reducing the toothy bite from the stone too much. This means I usually strop without compound. I reduce & thin the burrs as much as possible on the stone first, so that a simple strop of bare leather or denim will still be enough to clean up the edge.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Does anyone know if a PM2 comes already with a "micro-bevel"? It looks as if the edge is at a higher angle than the rest of the knife.

If I recall, Spyderco is (or was) known for using a hard felt wheel buffing process for the final edge deburring. That buffing is known to leave the apex looking very slightly rounded or microbeveled, and it does look a bit 'shiny' in comparison to the rest of the bevel's grind pattern. Not a deliberate microbevel, per se. But it sort of looks like it. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to protect it or emulate it, in resharpening. Just make sure to fully apex the edge, as with any knife. And add a microbevel to that, only if you want it.

 

[Boattale]

Took me a long time to get to the Ken Onion worksharp. Both in years and time sharpening knives with other methods. You're young and have nothing but time. So have at. For stones an 8"x2" soft Arkansas and 8"x2" hard Arkansas would be a good starting point and not all that expensive. And with all that time you have, when you can freehand on them, let your graduation present be something with diamonds involved.

 

[Hashishiin]

If I recall, Spyderco is (or was) known for using a hard felt wheel buffing process for the final edge deburring. That buffing is known to leave the apex looking very slightly rounded or microbeveled, and it does look a bit 'shiny' in comparison to the rest of the bevel's grind pattern. Not a deliberate microbevel, per se. But it sort of looks like it. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to protect it or emulate it, in resharpening. Just make sure to fully apex the edge, as with any knife. And add a microbevel to that, only if you want it.

What does that mean - to "apex the edge"? I am sorry if my questions become tiring, I do not mean to badger you, just getting great info

 

[Hashishiin]

Took me a long time to get to the Ken Onion worksharp. Both in years and time sharpening knives with other methods. You're young and have nothing but time. So have at. For stones an 8"x2" soft Arkansas and 8"x2" hard Arkansas would be a good starting point and not all that expensive. And with all that time you have, when you can freehand on them, let your graduation present be something with diamonds involved.

I was thinking this is the way to learn to free-hand. Regular cheap alum oxide stones and knives with more normal steels like AUS-8 or carbon steels. Even the PM2, once I have successfully sharpened a RAT to the point of satisfaction, I can learn to sharpen and perfect with my BD1N version as that steel is soft like VG-10, and once I have the hang of that I can do things like my Maxamet on diamonds.

But yeah, I totally agree, the normal stones are the way to go for learning freehand. I just want to be able to reliably keep a knife sharp in the meantime and by no means intend for a guided system to replace freehand. Maybe the sharpmaker will be enough to maintain my (honestly, many) knives until I'm good enough to freehand my real knives.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

What does that mean - to "apex the edge"? I am sorry if my questions become tiring, I do not mean to badger you, just getting great info

With the edge viewed in cross-section, the 'apex' is the very tip or peak of the edge grind, at which it's at its thinnest and sharpest.

'Apexing the edge', when sharpening, means grinding until each of the bevels intersects cleanly, in the smallest possible point, leaving the sharpest & thinnest apex possible. Reaching that apex usually means the steel will be thin enough there, that it'll start to fold to one side, forming a burr. The thumbrule being, if you don't have a burr yet, the edge isn't fully apexed.

 

[Hashishiin]

1-micron diamond paste is pretty popular as a universal stropping option. Being diamond, it still cuts any steel very efficiently - and at the relatively small grit size, it's not necessarily too aggressive for most any steel. Green compound, on the other hand, would struggle to refine high-wear steels very well, as it's not hard enough to handle the carbides in those steels. But for something like an Opinel, green would work well for that and for other knives in similar steels of carbon or low-alloy stainless (Opinel's XC90, 1095, CV, 420HC, etc.).

My own preferences for stropping are heavily biased toward doing it very minimally, if it's done with any compound at all. I tend to favor the slicing aggression left in the edge exactly as it comes off the stone. So, for any stropping I do, I use it mainly just to clean up the burrs and their remnants, without reducing the toothy bite from the stone too much. This means I usually strop without compound. I reduce & thin the burrs as much as possible on the stone first, so that a simple strop of bare leather or denim will still be enough to clean up the edge.

I could not really get any noticable effect on my carbon Opinel 8 with the green... maybe it was technique. I think I'm about to order the 1 micron diamond paste, that should be best. I will take your advice to strop minimally - would you rec the smooth

With the edge viewed in cross-section, the 'apex' is the very tip or peak, at which it's at its thinnest and sharpest.

'Apexing the edge', when sharpening, means grinding until each of the bevels intersects cleanly, in the smallest possible point, leaving the sharpest & thinnest apex possible. Reaching that apex usually means the steel will be thin enough there, that it'll start to fold to one side, forming a burr. The thumbrule being, if you don't have a burr yet, the edge isn't fully apexed.

Okay, that makes sense. It is my understanding that one is to raise a burr on both sides of the edge, and then sort of...get rid of it and clean it up on a strop. Obviously I must watch some videos or something, but I feel that would be better than pulling it through cork.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I could not really get any noticable effect on my carbon Opinel 8 with the green... maybe it was technique. I think I'm about to order the 1 micron diamond paste, that should be best. I will take your advice to strop minimally - would you rec the smooth

Okay, that makes sense. It is my understanding that one is to raise a burr on both sides of the edge, and then sort of...get rid of it and clean it up on a strop. Obviously I must watch some videos or something, but I feel that would be better than pulling it through cork.

If you're not noticing a benefit with stropping, that's a clue the edge isn't as refined as it could be, coming off the stones. Edge is not thin enough or not fully apexed, or both. Conversely, if you notice an immediate improvement with a few passes on a strop, that's a good sign you DID do everything right on the stones. Stropping is meant to be done pretty minimally anyway. If you're not seeing improvement after dozens of passes on a strop, then more needs to be done on the stones first.

You do want to raise the burr from both sides, to ensure that each of the bevels are ground cleanly all the way to the apex.

Pulling the edge through cork, wood, leather, cardboard, etc. can sometimes be enough to strip a thin burr away. But some burrs on some steels can be heavier and/or more ductile ('bendy'), and may not always come off that way. That's why it's always best to thin the burr as much as possible on a stone first. Once it's thin enough, even doing something very simple, like slicing into the edge of a piece of paper, can strip most or all of the burr away.

 

[Hashishiin]

If you're not noticing a benefit with stropping, that's a clue the edge isn't as refined as it could be, coming off the stones. Edge is not thin enough or not fully apexed, or both. Conversely, if you notice an immediate improvement with a few passes on a strop, that's a good sign you DID do everything right on the stones. Stropping is meant to be done pretty minimally anyway. If you're not seeing improvement after dozens of passes on a strop, then more needs to be done on the stones first.

You do want to raise the burr from both sides, to ensure that each of the bevels are ground cleanly all the way to the apex.

Pulling the edge through cork, wood, leather, cardboard, etc. can sometimes be enough to strip a thin burr away. But some burrs on some steels can be heavier and/or more ductile ('bendy'), and may not always come off that way. That's why it's always best to thin the burr as much as possible on a stone first. Once it's thin enough, even doing something very simple, like slicing into the edge of a piece of paper, can strip most or all of the burr away.

The Opinel is new, never touched a stone. The BD1N Z-cut that I noticed sliiiight better performance with after stropping, had a great edge out of the box. Thanks for the info though. I think I see that you swipe at a side until a thin wire burr appears at the other side. How do you see the second burr? Is it like, two thin wires, coming opposite of each other?

I am going to look into a bench stone as I do my guided system research, as Boattale recommends. I'm definitely excited, but a bit freaked out to start. All these terms... it's boggling.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

The Opinel is new, never touched a stone. The BD1N Z-cut that I noticed sliiiight better performance with after stropping, had a great edge out of the box. Thanks for the info though. I think I see that you swipe at a side until a thin wire burr appears at the other side. How do you see the second burr? Is it like, two thin wires, coming opposite of each other?

I am going to look into a bench stone as I do my guided system research, as Boattale recommends. I'm definitely excited, but a bit freaked out to start. All these terms... it's boggling.

Verifying the burr from both sides means creating it by grinding from one side (it'll fold or lean away from the side being sharpened), then grinding from the other side until the burr 'flips' in the opposite direction (away from the stone again) and can then be seen or felt from the side to which it leans. There won't be two burrs existing at the same time - only one, verified first on one side, then on the other side after it 'flips'.

 

[Hashishiin]

Verifying the burr from both sides means creating it by grinding from one side (it'll fold or lean away from the side being sharpened), then grinding from the other side until the burr 'flips' in the opposite direction (away from the stone again) and can then be seen or felt from the side to which it leans. There won't be two burrs existing at the same time - only one, verified first on one side, then on the other side after it 'flips'.

Oh! This makes much more sense to me. Okay. Thank you. Burring is something that comes later, right? During full sharpening? Or will it burr just going up/down on the sharpmaker rods?

 

[Boattale]

I was thinking this is the way to learn to free-hand. Regular cheap alum oxide stones and knives with more normal steels like AUS-8 or carbon steels. Even the PM2, once I have successfully sharpened a RAT to the point of satisfaction, I can learn to sharpen and perfect with my BD1N version as that steel is soft like VG-10, and once I have the hang of that I can do things like my Maxamet on diamonds.

But yeah, I totally agree, the normal stones are the way to go for learning freehand. I just want to be able to reliably keep a knife sharp in the meantime and by no means intend for a guided system to replace freehand. Maybe the sharpmaker will be enough to maintain my (honestly, many) knives until I'm good enough to freehand my real knives.

Do what you want but I would skip carborundum stones in favor of one soft and one hard Arkansas stone. Both of a good size and a block they will fit into. The block will help with stability and safety, allow room for your hands holding the knife while sharpening, and keep oil off everything while you're using them.

Knives & Whetstones

Shop our great selection of Arkansas Made pocketknives and whetstones, and make a plan see the Bowie Knives in our knife gallery at Historic Arkansas Museum.

store.historicarkansas.org

 

[Hashishiin]

Do what you want but I would skip carborundum stones in favor of one soft and one hard Arkansas stone. Both of a good size and a block they will fit into. The block will help with stability and safety, allow room for your hands holding the knife while sharpening, and keep oil off everything while you're using them.

Knives & Whetstones

Shop our great selection of Arkansas Made pocketknives and whetstones, and make a plan see the Bowie Knives in our knife gallery at Historic Arkansas Museum.

store.historicarkansas.org

That is what I was referring to - Arkansas stones. Those are Alum oxide right?

All I have on the way right now is the standard sharpmaker, and about to order 1micron diamond paste. Looking for a starter set of Ark stones that will perform well and not cost a fortune, and a guided system.

 

[Boattale]

That is what I was referring to - Arkansas stones. Those are Alum oxide right?

All I have on the way right now is the standard sharpmaker, and about to order 1micron diamond paste. Looking for a starter set of Ark stones that will perform well and not cost a fortune, and a guided system.

No, they are novaculite, a naturally occurring quartz crystalline sedimentary rock. Google is your friend. The History Museum website I gave earlier has a Tri Hone set with a coarse silicon carbide and two Arkansas stones for $36. Not a fortune.

 

[Hashishiin]

No, they are novaculite, a naturally occurring quartz crystalline sedimentary rock. Google is your friend. The History Museum website I gave earlier has a Tri Hone set with a coarse silicon carbide and two Arkansas stones for $36. Not a fortune.

Sorry, clicked your link into another window to read, but got distracted. I'm gonna do some reading, do some watching, buy that 1micron stuff, try the sharpmaker, and come back to you guys.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Oh! This makes much more sense to me. Okay. Thank you. Burring is something that comes later, right? During full sharpening? Or will it burr just going up/down on the sharpmaker rods?

The burr happens only when the steel at the apex gets thin enough, and therefore weak enough, that it folds under pressure from the hone. So, it is indicative of a 'full sharpening', when the burr is seen and verified from both sides of the apex.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

That is what I was referring to - Arkansas stones. Those are Alum oxide right?

All I have on the way right now is the standard sharpmaker, and about to order 1micron diamond paste. Looking for a starter set of Ark stones that will perform well and not cost a fortune, and a guided system.

FYI, Arkansas stones are nice when used with simpler steels not having much wear resistance. Simple carbon steels and low-alloy stainless like 420HC can respond pretty nicely to them, and they can be a pleasure to use with such steels.

But with any steel having much hard carbide content, they'll struggle. The novaculite abrasive in them is barely harder than the simple hardened cutlery steel itself, and much less hard than the carbides (chromium carbide, vanadium carbide, tungsten carbide) in many of the popular high-wear steels. They don't grind very well, or hardly at all, with steels like 440C, D2, S30V/90V/110V, etc.

I don't want to discourage the trying of Arkansas stones. I like the ones I have. But in today's array of popular knife steels, they're pretty limited in their usefulness with a lot of them.

 

[Triple_D]

If you're not noticing a benefit with stropping, that's a clue the edge isn't as refined as it could be, coming off the stones. Edge is not thin enough or not fully apexed, or both. Conversely, if you notice an immediate improvement with a few passes on a strop, that's a good sign you DID do everything right on the stones. Stropping is meant to be done pretty minimally anyway. If you're not seeing improvement after dozens of passes on a strop, then more needs to be done on the stones first.

You do want to raise the burr from both sides, to ensure that each of the bevels are ground cleanly all the way to the apex.

Pulling the edge through cork, wood, leather, cardboard, etc. can sometimes be enough to strip a thin burr away. But some burrs on some steels can be heavier and/or more ductile ('bendy'), and may not always come off that way. That's why it's always best to thin the burr as much as possible on a stone first. Once it's thin enough, even doing something very simple, like slicing into the edge of a piece of paper, can strip most or all of the burr away.

Thanks for the good information, here. I always pay attention to your posts.

On the topic of stropping, I've always used the green compound, and I do indeed get a noticeable improvement within just 6 or 8 passes on the strop. I make my own strops, and have a couiple of spares that are still bare leather, and was thinking about trying them. Since one is smooth side up, and the other is rough, which would you recommend? Or doe it even matter? I suppose I could (and likely will) experiment with both, but it's always good to hear from others who have more experience.

Thanks.

 

[DavidABQ]

I have had very good luck with the standard rods that come with the kit. With that said I went ahead and bought the Ultra-Fine rods and wow did they give me a really fine edge. I have not tried any of the other rods but that may change in the future.

I am not really sharpening any difficult steels; I primarily sharpen S35, S30, some D2 by Queen and the occasional slip-joint in 1095. Nothing too demanding and the Spyderco ceramics seem to do a fine job with the steels I am sharpening.

 

[Hashishiin]

FYI, Arkansas stones are nice when used with simpler steels not having much wear resistance. Simple carbon steels and low-alloy stainless like 420HC can respond pretty nicely to them, and they can be a pleasure to use with such steels.

But with any steel having much hard carbide content, they'll struggle. The novaculite abrasive in them is barely harder than the simple hardened cutlery steel itself, and much less hard than the carbides (chromium carbide, vanadium carbide, tungsten carbide) in many of the popular high-wear steels. They don't grind very well, or hardly at all, with steels like 440C, D2, S30V/90V/110V, etc.

I don't want to discourage the trying of Arkansas stones. I like the ones I have. But in today's array of popular knife steels, they're pretty limited in their usefulness with a lot of them.

Oh yes, I know that. These are basically insurance, so that I sharpen my BD1N, 420HC, carbon, etc. freehand, before I invest in freehand diamonds. They are to get me working, and get me the hang of putting an edge on steel.
My Sharpmaker should arrive tomorrow, and my diamond paste the day after that. I got the Wicked Edge spray stuff.

I have had very good luck with the standard rods that come with the kit. With that said I went ahead and bought the Ultra-Fine rods and wow did they give me a really fine edge. I have not tried any of the other rods but that may change in the future.

I am not really sharpening any difficult steels; I primarily sharpen S35, S30, some D2 by Queen and the occasional slip-joint in 1095. Nothing too demanding and the Spyderco ceramics seem to do a fine job with the steels I am sharpening.

That's good to hear, dang... I thought S30 would be the hardest one, along with D2. Those are the two I am most afraid to touch up, your comment inspires confidence though.