Can someone tell me about this?

[Highlander 20026]

It doesn't need to compare to modern steels. That doesn't make it inferior. The Japanese swordsmiths KNOW what they are working with....the proof is in the cutting/performance.

Let me put it this way.

Bill Burke, ABS MS, is well versed in the heat treat of 5160 and 52100, multiple quench cycles and all that. He is also the sole source of Takefu laminated steels in the US. He LEADS smelts of tamehagane in the US. If it was actually inferior, he wouldn't waste his time, nor would the other smiths involved. They are busy, this is a full time endeavor for them, and if it didn't make a superior blade and be sellable, they just wouldn't do it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

i think you misunderstood me, inferior as in the vail that a Japanese tamahagane sword is some how magical and better than modern steels this is not the case

 

[Highlander 20026]

Wrong again
http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/...Japanese_sword_the_science_and_technology.pdf

Cheers

GC

look i am not wrong, if the grade of steel was better it wouldnt have be purified with 10 or more folds , and after this is done the carbon content may be low, may be high, maybe to hard or not hard enough, i know the smiths know what they are doing but they are not magical, they cannot see inside the metal to see what it has, it is their best guess, i know they know about what it is, but that inconsistency could be the difference in a broken sword or a badly chipped one

 

[Kohai999]

i think you misunderstood me, inferior as in the vail that a Japanese tamahagane sword is some how magical and better than modern steels this is not the case

Ok, I see your point.

You have to remember that the art of smelting tamehagane and producing Nihonto endures because of the art and craft aspect of it, not the engineering science.

Mokume gane hada is a thing to behold from an art perspective, whereas alloy banding is interesting, but not nearly as compelling.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Highlander 20026]

Ok, I see your point.

You have to remember that the art of smelting tamehagane and producing Nihonto endures because of the art and craft aspect of it, not the engineering science.

Mokume gane hada is a thing to behold from an art perspective, whereas alloy banding is interesting, but not nearly as compelling.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

right i have high regards for true tamahagane sword i have one myself, but everyone thinks they are a super sword if it came from japan and not somewhere else, i guess hollywood is partially to blame

 

[horseclover]

look i am not wrong

My reply with the link was to point out the distribution of the steel in Japan.

As to comparisons of modern steels, my earlier reply was regarding the senselessness in comparing Japanese work with Chinese production. Further that the "san mai" reference was kind of a shallow perspective to offer. I in no way endorsed Japanese swords as having superiority except in the manner in which they are made.

Carbon loss in forging occurs with any steel, modern or not. Is a machine made monosteel scientifically heat treated blade the "best"? That, as repeated by me is a completely subjective value.

Cheers

GC

 

[Highlander 20026]

My reply with the link was to point out the distribution of the steel in Japan.

As to comparisons of modern steels, my earlier reply was regarding the senselessness in comparing Japanese work with Chinese production. Further that the "san mai" reference was kind of a shallow perspective to offer. I in no way endorsed Japanese swords as having superiority except in the manner in which they are made.

Carbon loss in forging occurs with any steel, modern or not. Is a machine made monosteel scientifically heat treated blade the "best"? That, as repeated by me is a completely subjective value.

Cheers

GC

of course carbon loss is in any, but it is more when you fold the steel and when you do not know the carbon content to begin with, if all they do is eye ball it then it is not consistent that is my point

 

[horseclover]

of course carbon loss is in any, but it is more when you fold the steel and when you do not know the carbon content to begin with, if all they do is eye ball it then it is not consistent that is my point

Even if you know the carbon content, eyeballing is eyeballing. More than one type laminated, welded, reheated, reworked and the heat treated, the end result is still an unknown if not a machine made monosteel.

The tatara controls produce more uniform steel than one might think (as outlined in that pdf). Given that, a maru (mono build) Japanese made blade is still going to have significant carbon content, even after forging and the only real difference between that and a Chitana is the heat treat method.

Therefore, my point, is still that it is senseless to compare steels of a monosteel Chitana with tamahagane because any Chitana "san mai" or pattern welded blade with manufactured steels is going to be no "better" than Japanese blades (or well done smelts elsewhere).

Whatever

GC

 

[Highlander 20026]

Even if you know the carbon content, eyeballing is eyeballing. More than one type laminated, welded, reheated, reworked and the heat treated, the end result is still an unknown if not a machine made monosteel.

The tatara controls produce more uniform steel than one might think (as outlined in that pdf). Given that, a maru (mono build) Japanese made blade is still going to have significant carbon content, even after forging and the only real difference between that and a Chitana is the heat treat method.

Therefore, my point, is still that it is senseless to compare steels of a monosteel Chitana with tamahagane because any Chitana "san mai" or pattern welded blade with manufactured steels is going to be no "better" than Japanese blades (or well done smelts elsewhere).

Whatever

GC

that was my whole point, tamahagane offers no advantages, in some case less so because of all of the unknowns, i have heard many say you need to spend 10k on a tamahagane sword, no you only spend that for authenticity not for quality imo

 

[Kohai999]

that was my whole point, tamahagane offers no advantages, in some case less so because of all of the unknowns, i have heard many say you need to spend 10k on a tamahagane sword, no you only spend that for authenticity not for quality imo

Uhhhhh.....now you are back to being damned wrong.

Tamehagane may not offer the performance advantages of 3V or L6, but the beautiful hamon, with a nice hada, and ashi lines COMBINED with the best heat treat and edge geometry that the smith can produce make a wondrously superior blade from an aesthetic perspective AND a fantastic cutter.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Highlander 20026]

Uhhhhh.....now you are back to being damned wrong.

Tamehagane may not offer the performance advantages of 3V or L6, but the beautiful hamon, with a nice hada, and ashi lines COMBINED with the best heat treat and edge geometry that the smith can produce make a wondrously superior blade from an aesthetic perspective AND a fantastic cutter.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

umm how? i love the look of a folded blade and a beautiful hamon, but yes you are right take an l6 high end blade vs tamahagane and i guarantee l6 will outperform it, tamahagane is great, has been great for 1000 years, but there is also the science behind modern steels that we have learned so much on that makes them better in alot of ways

 

[horseclover]

umm how? i love the look of a folded blade and a beautiful hamon, but yes you are right take an l6 high end blade vs tamahagane and i guarantee l6 will outperform it, tamahagane is great, has been great for 1000 years, but there is also the science behind modern steels that we have learned so much on that makes them better in alot of ways

To be honest, the L6 hype and ego is no less Hollywood than tamahagane. I wouldn't bother with any L6 other than a Howard Clark blade and you will spend as much for one as someone else wanting an art sword. I could point to a recent using Japanese sword for less than $2000. That's with fittings and saya. Fresh and ready to go for reasonable use (not for cutting up cars and washing machines).

Anyone holding forth an L6 blade as somehow the ultimate is in the same bracket of any fanboy club and lunacy. Compound that with owners that look at swords as something to beat on, just because they can. I can actually point to three (including that one) that could satisfy just about any interest. From a Koto blade in real fresh fittings to the aforementioned, with a dandy wakazashi kicking around in the $700 bracket. All three better assembled than any production Chitana.

I can only think of a handful of makers worthy of touting L6 bainite swords and at least two of three overseas sources I can think of don't do kashira worth my money (if I were shopping them).

My one working katana is a Hanwei practical from the fourth run (2002) and has been handeled and cut with by dozens of people since landing here in 2003. The wrap is still quite tight (and dirty). It has also beat on some pretty tough targets. It gets tuned up with only very occasional ceramic and diamond hone careevery couple of years and lives in its bag. I may yet sell it for $100. I paid $135 shipped in 2003.

Someone please chime in with an Infi blade, so we can ohhh and ahhh about that. Get a grip, I say. They're just swords.


For shame, my last sword buy is a Cold Steel backsword, (I should have bought a new generation camera).

GC

 

[Kohai999]

I actually have two L6 swords, one from Bailey Bradshaw and one from CAS Hanwei....they are both very tough and hold an edge well...no Hollywood.

For something beautiful and maybe able to come close in performance, I would not hesitate to buy a tamehagane sword....but the problem is in the finish, not the steel. I cut very aggressive materials(bamboo...green and yellow) and they scratch the hell out of the polish, rendering anything close to bringing out all those nuances of the steel sort of thrashed. All my swords are used to cut, so there is a conundrum that I have been unable to solve as yet.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[leeham32]

Ryansword and it's sub-companies are probably the worst sword makers in China, on top of lying about lamination types, they have no idea what they are doing when they heat treat their swords. If you want evidence go talk to Donnie Reed on Facebook in the "ALL SWORDS" group.

 

[adamrockcrawler]

Very informative everyone, and I mean that.

However to get back to the OP's question, would one rather recommend a different brand such as a inexpensive Ronin Katana blade? Especially for cutting mats, newspaper, and poor pool noodles in the backyard?