Can this be fixed?

I think several of the posters are not grasping the type of defect. It is a crack that is closed/filled by the stabilization resin. Additionally, the handle is sanded to shape and size already. It can't be filled with sawdust and CA like an open crack or pit in burl woods. Any attempt to dig out the resin would be worse than leaving it as is. Replacement is the only real option at this stage.
 
Stacy, with all due respect that just isn't true.

I have personally made a repairs to epoxy saturated wood exterior trim on a yacht. It was epoxy, and not acrylic, but there shouldn't be that much difference. The area can be carefully ground out. The glue and sawdust type repair as typically done is pretty crude. Often times it requires some dye, stain or other colorant to make the repair disapear and match the grain structure of the surrounding area. If someone's approach was to just try a quick glue and sawdust repair, I agree the repair would likely be very visible.

If you are ever around Port Townsend WA go visit one of the many wooden boat shipwrights. When they have a piece of epoxy saturated trim that is also bonded to the underlying surface with epoxy they repair the piece in place and I can guarantee nobody will ever spot the repair.
 
I'm taking to heart all the comment here regarding craftsmanship/artisanship. My intent was never to put lipstick on a pig.:pig::D I wasn't happy with it and knew that it wasn't going out of the shop like that but thought I would throw up a "hail Mary" before resorting to removing the scales. I didn't feel that the defect was causing any structural compromise so my thinking was is there a technique similar to the way we fix other cosmetic defects in wood like voids in burl. The answer is clearly no.
So... Here's an update...For my own education I went ahead and chipped out the acrylic resin (thanks Stacy for the clarification) and back filled with CA + sawdust. Result was as predicted, a defect that you can't feel but can see. So the scales are now off...mostly. I have a new found respect for epoxy. That residual garolite/epoxy combo has become one with the steel. Now the question is what is the best way to get the last bits of garolite off? Grind off? Propane torch to loosen?rce1.jpg
 
drysideshooter said:
Stacy, with all due respect that just isn't true.

I have personally made a repairs to epoxy saturated wood exterior trim on a yacht. It was epoxy, and not acrylic, but there shouldn't be that much difference. The area can be carefully ground out. The glue and sawdust type repair as typically done is pretty crude. Often times it requires some dye, stain or other colorant to make the repair disapear and match the grain structure of the surrounding area. If someone's approach was to just try a quick glue and sawdust repair, I agree the repair would likely be very visible.

If you are ever around Port Townsend WA go visit one of the many wooden boat shipwrights. When they have a piece of epoxy saturated trim that is also bonded to the underlying surface with epoxy they repair the piece in place and I can guarantee nobody will ever spot the repair.
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I don't doubt that you can do a lot in repairing a wooden boat side. They are 20-50 feet long and the damage is sometimes inches wide by feet long. Also, you are working with epoxy, not catalyzed acrylics.

In a .1mm wide by 10mm long split on close grained hardwood, that has been closed by catalyzed acrylic resin, any attempt to remove the resin and replace it with filler will show as much as the original defect .... or worse. I know this from doing maybe a thousand knife handles. I can fill buckeye burl or redwood burl that looks unusable to make it a stunning show handle...buy small closed cracks inn stabilized wood have to be replaced.
 
I will defer to your vastly superior knowledge of knife scales Stacy. Many of the repairs I am talking about were not that much larger than the defect in the scale. As to one previous poster it has nothing to do with character. Its doing what makes the most sense within a number of considerations. I have been the CEO of a major regional building and development company for years. We are known for our finish work and our projects make it into magazines on a regular basis.

I am not surprised at your reaction to the strength of the epoxy bond. It is very surprising to most folks. I have been on Transpac racing boats (sail) that have all of the winch fasteners embedded in epoxy. Those winches endure all kinds of loads. If properly done the deck will fail before the fasteners let go from the epoxy.
 
Barry Clodfelter said:
Replacing scales or handles is part of knife making. If you are not happy with it it is doubtful a customer will be happy with it. Every knife maker will have to replace handles from time to time when using natural material it is just part of the process. Like has been said scales with a fixed crack will always looks like scales with a fixed crack. It will be cheaper in the long run to bit it and take them off now instead of spending time trying to repair then take them off later.
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What Barry said!:thumb up: If you haven't had to grind the scales off of a knife and start over? You haven't made very many knives.;)

I don't want blems, cracks and flaws like that out there with my name on them. Period!
 
Does anyone have a suggestion for rcetroy on getting "the last bits of garolite off?" - see post #23.
 
Dryside,
I totally agree on the strength of epoxy bonds. I use onlt System Three or west System epoxies. My comment was that the resin used to stabilize wood is an acrylic, not an epoxy. Monomer acrylates are infused into the wood and then catalyzed by heat to polymerize into an acrylic resin. On small internal cracks, this often completely fills the crack. On burls, that is fine. On straight grain ( like this knife) it usually isn't.

dejard,
Just warm the knife to 250-300F and the garolite and everything else will come right off.
 
With the stabilization the crack is sealed in time. It cannot be repaired. Only replaced or agreed usable by the customer.
 
You could actually use a graver, or take a worn out small burr for a rotary tool and cut off the end and file the end of the shaft and rough it up. If using that and not the graver I would out it in a #30 handpiece and cut a wedge shaped channel where the split is. Cut a an oversized wedge of the same color out of another piece of material. Fit it to the cut space but leave it substantially proud. Saturate the wedge with epoxy and place it in the wedge opening and put a couple wraps of tape around it. Once it is cured fair it down to the surrounding areas. The most challenging part is feathering the edges so everything blends. Tougher with some colors and grain patterns than others.

Just this morning our superintendent was dealing with a client of ours about some petrified wood for a fireplace surround. The material is several hundred dollars a square foot. There are some areas where there were voids, very similar to what you see in natural travertine. This client wants a very smooth, even surface. Our stone folks are going to have to do some cutting and grinding and make some very difficult patches. This stuff was wood at one time, but for all intents and purposes it is stone now. We have used similar materials previously and folks appreciated the natural character. This lady wants a perfectly smooth surface and doesn't want anything to look like a patch. Sometimes natural and semi-,natural products have flaws or characteristics that aren't acceptable to the end user. I think making such alterations is exciting and can really demonstrate someone's skill. Of course if it's less expensive and time intensive to scrap it and start over thats the way to do it.
 
I'm with drysideshooter. If you can repair it so the repair is invisible then repair it. If the repair is visible, then replace it.

Tim
 
I'm sorry, but if I was buying ( or selling) a custom knife and there was a wedge of wood as a patch, I would be Pi$$ed. Also, I am a very talented worker in minute repairs, but can't imaging a repair on that crack being invisible ( or durable). Changes in the grain lines aren't really concealable at this level of smallness.

I'll let it go and just say that it appears people have different levels of acceptability on a repaired knife being sold without disclosure.
 
Stacy, it all depends on the skill of the person doing, which comes down to experience level. I'm paid millions of dollars to make good decisions with regard to some very expensive projects. I take it on a case by case basis, and if something can't be repaired to where it can't be noticed, I agree, it needs to be replaced. I have been amazed at some of the repairs I have seen made though. I will often leave it up to a craftsman. If they tell me they can repair something and end up with a perfect appearance, or make a piece of natural material look better, I let them have at it. We are lucky to work with some really talented craftsman, because at our level of quality and price it's expected. We have some trim carpenters that make 180K+ per year, and they are expected to be at the top of their craft at all times.

Lately we have been working with a lot of natural cherry, and quite a bit of rustic cherry. Improving on natural materials is just part of working with them some times. Some times an otherwise beautiful piece of rustic cherry has one section that is a bit too rustic, but maybe it's in the middle of an otherwise great 20' piece that already been milled to be used as a single piece in a coffered ceiling. It get's improved. If there is any possibility that someone could spot the change it wouldn't be used.

I own some really nice knives from some well known makers. If there had been a noticeable flaw in one of those I would have been surprised and miffed. If there is a repair that I can't discern, I am none the wiser and don't really care as long as it lasts.
 
drysideshooter said:
I own some really nice knives from some well known makers. If there had been a noticeable flaw in one of those I would have been surprised and miffed. If there is a repair that I can't discern, I am none the wiser and don't really care as long as it lasts.
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That is probably because if they had a flaw then they replaced it. The word repair should never be used in a new custom knife. Period. IMNSHO of course :D
 
I think the difference in opinion comes from the respective backgrounds of the different craftsmen. In drysideshooter's business, we are talking about a very expensive replacement...a 20' piece of rustic cherry, not a set of knife scales. Also, there is a difference in workmanship expectations in finish carpentry on an entire boat vs. a small knife. If I were to guess, I'd say we OCD knifemakers could find a thousand "flaws" on a sizeable boat that would be considered unacceptable on a knife, where we are driven crazy because of 1 or 2/1000" here and there. I'm sure prominent surfaces are flawless, but elsewhere there will be what knifemakers would call "flaws" nonetheless. Who is going to inspect a boat that closely other than the builder? Knives are different. Not many surfaces to inspect...we see everything. And, I think we (at least for me) are far more critical of our work than are others.

I have no doubt that a true craftsman could make that handle look acceptable, possibly flawless...but at what cost in time and effort? Probably better to just replace the handles, know it's done right and sleep better at night. That said, I'm glad we have people of such diverse backgrounds posting here...I learn from everyone. Just my humble opinion.
 
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drysideshooter said:
Stacy, it all depends on the skill of the person doing, which comes down to experience level. I'm paid millions of dollars to make good decisions with regard to some very expensive projects. I take it on a case by case basis, and if something can't be repaired to where it can't be noticed, I agree, it needs to be replaced. I have been amazed at some of the repairs I have seen made though. I will often leave it up to a craftsman. If they tell me they can repair something and end up with a perfect appearance, or make a piece of natural material look better, I let them have at it. We are lucky to work with some really talented craftsman, because at our level of quality and price it's expected. We have some trim carpenters that make 180K+ per year, and they are expected to be at the top of their craft at all times.

Lately we have been working with a lot of natural cherry, and quite a bit of rustic cherry. Improving on natural materials is just part of working with them some times. Some times an otherwise beautiful piece of rustic cherry has one section that is a bit too rustic, but maybe it's in the middle of an otherwise great 20' piece that already been milled to be used as a single piece in a coffered ceiling. It get's improved. If there is any possibility that someone could spot the change it wouldn't be used.

I own some really nice knives from some well known makers. If there had been a noticeable flaw in one of those I would have been surprised and miffed. If there is a repair that I can't discern, I am none the wiser and don't really care as long as it lasts.
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If you get a chance, could you post a few before and after photos of what you are discussing. It would interesting to see. We have ash hardwood floors and have had a few repairs done and I know where they are and cannot always find them right away. The right materials in the hands of a tslented wood worker can make lots of things go away. But a bad repair almost draws your eye to it.
 
How much time to replace it and have it perfect vs. How much time to keep it and repair it and end up with a repaired scale?

My experience is to replace it will save time and $$ in the end.
 
Thought I would do an update on this thread. The second set of scales I made for this knife also had a crack😟Luckily I found it before gluing them on. ImageUploadedByTapatalk1418574198.492153.jpg
Third time's a charm right? All's well that ends well. Thanks again for the input guys. ImageUploadedByTapatalk1418574564.024608.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1418574576.608791.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1418574586.079393.jpg
 
Lance Carrico said:
I think the difference in opinion comes from the respective backgrounds of the different craftsmen. In drysideshooter's business, we are talking about a very expensive replacement...a 20' piece of rustic cherry, not a set of knife scales. Also, there is a difference in workmanship expectations in finish carpentry on an entire boat vs. a small knife. If I were to guess, I'd say we OCD knifemakers could find a thousand "flaws" on a sizeable boat that would be considered unacceptable on a knife, where we are driven crazy because of 1 or 2/1000" here and there. I'm sure prominent surfaces are flawless, but elsewhere there will be what knifemakers would call "flaws" nonetheless. Who is going to inspect a boat that closely other than the builder? Knives are different. Not many surfaces to inspect...we see everything. And, I think we (at least for me) are far more critical of our work than are others.

I have no doubt that a true craftsman could make that handle look acceptable, possibly flawless...but at what cost in time and effort? Probably better to just replace the handles, know it's done right and sleep better at night. That said, I'm glad we have people of such diverse backgrounds posting here...I learn from everyone. Just my humble opinion.
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Well said. While it is possible that a repair could have been done that wasn't detectable, it could also easily have been spending considerable time on a repair and the craftsman not being happy with it and the time would have been better spent replacing the scales. In retrospect it was rather ignorant of me to think that's repair was realistically a good option. Too much rum in my eggnog or something and I wasn't wrapping my head around the scale of the project.

PT Doc, please send me a pic of the floor. Often with hardwoods it is best to replace an individual piece. Cutting out even a thin atrionof T&G hardwood isn't difficult. The art comes in matching the patina of the surrounding wood. If you can PM me a pic or two In will offer some suggestions.

How ironic the 2nd set had the same flaw! Glad the OP finally got some flaw free scales mounted.
 
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