Can We Cut It Out With The Racy Avatars?

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Uh, Gollnick, I refuted your position that the individual should have to subordinate his desires for the good of the community.

As far as the "relevance" of certain avatars, who decides that? You? We're back again to the old, "Why do you NEED that semi-auto rifle-handgun-.50BMG rifle-butterfly knife-auto knife-racy avatar?!?" argument. Yeah, what do AR-15s and AKs have to do with hunting? Why would anyone NEED those weapons? :rolleyes:
 
Folks, if I had mod power I would lock this thread and be done with it. Nothing is going to get resolved here. I'm used to flamewars on W&C, but this is *much* different.

Please just lock the damn thread. Else, I will invoke Godwin's law.
 
I absolutely LOVE the "Hot" avatar's, and so do my kid's...at least, I'm sure they would if they ever saw them. They appreciate the beauty of the human body.

Jeff/1911.

ps - I support our FD, PD and EMT 1000%, and value them immensely.
 
As you will all know, the Dutch have no morals and no culture, but as a person living in a somewhat different atmosphere than most of you (we are pretty laid back in the Netherlands and a picture of 'a little bare skin' won't even raise an eyebrow), I must agree that it is impossible to offend no-one.

Judging from this forum we should be glad if we succeed in saying what we want, without insulting someones favourite knife brand ;)
(man, some of you are loyal customers)

We should all be old and wise enough to read and look at what we want and skip what we don't. We don't have to agree, although it would be nice to get along (but even that is optional)

Any children looking at this forum should be bored out of their minds and fast asleep before anyhting offensive comes along :)

Anyone's boss who looks overly interested when you are checking out the site, must want the link form him- or herself to check out whatever it was you were looking at

aren't knives great!

DUCky
 
Fiver,

Wouldn't you be considered as having a pro-nazi attitude if you invoked Godwins law?

:D :D :D :D :D :D
 
Originally posted by fishface5
References to political beliefs are another example - they come up all the time, and they are certainly rarely knife-related. But that's life. Religion, politics, boobs, each have value - exactly how much value depends on the individual. We could try to police it all to ensure that no one gets offended, but this isn't a 6th-grade library, with some librarian shushing everyone and keeping order so we can get our homework done - it's a lively community of individuals, here because we enjoy being here. "Irrelevant" avatars and tag-lines, as well as miscellaneous off-topic babblings, makes this place a collection of interesting individuals, a community if you will, and are a significant contributor to the liveliness that keeps the community going. As with any ecosystem, nature teaches that diversity is the path to success.
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Excellent...! Worth reading again.

Gollnick, enough with the "No one has refuted that" blah, blah, blah.:rolleyes: You've been refuted for almost 200 posts.

What do you want? For racy avs to be banned? Don't look like that's gonna happen.
What do you want? For us to agree with you? Some will, most won't. It's simply your opinion that you endlessly throw out there.

What do you want? You have been refuted point by point AND in philosophy.

Big deal...get over it. They are just opinions...respectfully speaking.:D

Oh BTW, it ain't moxie, it's pig-headedness.:p
 
Originally posted by Kevan Taylor-Perry


I'll list the things that offend me:

3.) People that, in the future, may post an avatar of something as bland and devoid of personality as themselves. Such as a big skillet of Hamburger Helper. Or a big pot of macaroni and cheese. I will be offended. I will request that no such foods (if one may actually call them "foods") ever be posted again. For I find those foods to be the root cause of the moral decay of America, leading children to thinking that cooking is just adding the noodles from packet "A" and the sauce mix and a cup of water. Think of the children! They could be irreparably harmed by seeing big, digusting skillets of processed foods! How will we ever convince them to eat their broccoli if they see big, steamy pans of Hamburger Helper (the cheeseburger one) and even Tuna Helper?! My Gods, do you see what that could lead to?! Why, a study by one of the leading universities has discovered that kids that don't eat their broccoli are 103.6% times more likely to return library books five days overdue, stick their used chewing gum underneath school desks, and look at old National Geographics in the dentists office (the ones with the !Kung! women in them.) We must act now to save the children! We must ban the possible avatars of any "just add hamburger or tuna" ready-to-serve in 20 minutes meals! The future of our nation is at stake! Please help! I'm sitting here, the only one concerned about this crisis (and while it is immensely satisfying to play the suffering martyr---would someone please pass me my crown of thorns...it's over there behind my halo), and everyone just thinks it's silly! Well, it's not! This is an important issue! You laugh now, but wait til you find empty cheese packets from Kraft in YOUR kid's bedroom! Who'll be laughing then, eh!?
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Oh man, is that EVER funny. And, right on the mark!

Good on you, lad! Best wishes, Jeff/1911. :p
 
This will be my last post in this thread.

Originally posted by Gollnick
I say again, these avatars are irrelevant and superfluous to the discussion topic at hand, offensive and, therefore, discouraging to large and significant portions of society, and create a negative image and reinforce negative stereotypes about knives and the knife community. Therefore, they are contrary to the purpose of this site.

Nobody has refuted that.
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Let's break that down.

Racy avatars are bad for the image of the forum, so therefore should be irradicated. But, good avatars serves a useful function. So, the issue is not whether the avatars serves a purpose, they do. Conclusion: Not all avatars are "irrelevant and superflious".

This also resolves the right to expression issue, since avatar are being used for that purpose. Just as long as you don't find them "offensive".

Which is what I see as the main point of contention: how do you define what is "offensive"? We've been given two concrete examples by Sparks: pornography and hate crime messages. Let's agree that there are no hate crime message in an avatar of a partially nude female. So did it cross over to pornography? Let's see.

It's partial nudity, not complete nudity. There are no sex acts in place (OK, two girls with touching tongues may qualify there). There is some artistic value in the way the photograph was composed. I don't see it as pornography.

As pointed out by many people, in many different ways, those racy avatars are within the forum's acceptable boundaries. Since you still find them offensive, you can't blame us for coming to the conclusion that your sensibilities were offended. I concede that you are fighting for the boundary to be a bit more reserved, but that's not your call.

Until that call is made one of two things needs to happen. 1) You stop viewing the offending avatars by placing those people in your ignore list (which makes sense to me since you don't value what they have to say anyway; just the fact that they have an offending avatar is enough to discourage you from reading their post). This way you can still use your avatar for your purposes, while those with racy avatars are free to post anywhere within BF. 2) You accept that these avatars have a place here and now, and be a little more tolerant.

But, by all means, keep on campaigning, that's the one positive thing about the democratic process; the right of an individual to effect change.
 
Originally posted by swede79
So now we aren't allowed to disagree or take someone to task because they were at ground zero? Talk about censorship!
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Actually, you said this
I find it interesting that some of the most vocal objectors and "racy" avatar owners also have some "firefighter 9/11" stuff in their sig lines, like they have the high moral road.

Keep dreaming guys.
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Your comments are not taking someone to task who coincidentally happened to be at ground zero. After being chastised for your remarks, your now making it sound like your a victim of unfair censorship because, as you suggest, a person shouldn't argue with someone who was at ground zero?

You attacked this guy's signature, which happens to be a little memorial dedicated to some guys who died in the line of duty.

You owe an apology, IMO.

EDITED: for grammar/spelling
 
You've been refuted for almost 200 posts.... You have been refuted point by point AND in philosophy.
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Apparently, I'm not seeing it. Perhaps you'll be so kind as to point it out to me specifically.

I haven't seen anyone show that these avatars are relevant to knife discussion. In my opinion, it is obvious that they are not.

I haven't seen anyone show that these avatars are not offensive to many people and are not discouraging people and creating problems for people. In fact, several people have stated that they do find these avatars offensive and that these avatars do discourage them from participating or cause problems for people who want to participate.

And I haven't seen anyone show that these avatars are not contributing to negative perceptions and stereotypes.



Just as long as you don't find them "offensive".... Since you still find them offensive.... You stop viewing the offending avatars by placing those people in your ignore list.... You accept that these avatars have a place here and now, and be a little more tolerant....
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Again (and again and again and again) this IS NOT about me or what I find offensive. I have never said that it is. Other people here have tried to cast the argument that way.

These avatars are completely irrelevant to the discussion of knives, which is the purpose of this site, and they discourage people who come here for that purpose, people who might otherwise make an intelligent or helpful contributtion. In this way, these avatars work against the purpose of this site. Furthermore, these avatars create and perpetuate negative perceptions and stereotypes about knives and the knife community.

Those points are not about me.

I keep making those same points and, as far as I can see, nobody has refuted them. Instead, people just keep trying to assert that this is just about Gollnick and his cufflinks.
 
Its really quite simple, if everyone stops posting then there will be no objectional avatars and people that don't present a positive influence on knife collecting won't promote that negative image. If nothing else, if no one posts, those "new" members won't have to strain themselves doing a whole bunch of reading.

Gollnick, my objections are not rooted in the avatar issue, but in the fact that you'd like us to "change" in order to promote your version of knife collecting to "new" people browsing the forum. That is what I find totally objectional, giving up life style and personality (even those with lousey personalities) traits in order to appeal to the masses. It would make it easier to moderate though, as the only forums left would be probably be a SAK forum and the traditional/slipjoint forum.
 
Ok, enough is enough! I'm taking over as Moderator, and locking this one. Anybody else posting to this thread will be put in the corner and have his/her wrist slapped!
 
Originally posted by Gollnick
I haven't seen anyone show that these avatars are relevant to knife discussion. In my opinion, it is obvious that they are not.
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Gollnick--it would be pretty easy to extend your argument to include all avatars, unless they are specifically knife-related. I mean, your picture of yourself is irrelevant to a discussion of knives as well. I don't need to know what you look like to read your posts on knives. Maybe we should just get rid of avatars altogether.

--Josh
 
A few points:
Please don't use "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..." in any "rights" argument. That line is from the Declaration of Independence and is NOT in the Constitution. It is NOT in your "bill of rights" either.

Alot has been said about children in this thread, but it clearly states that no one under the age of 13 can register. So basic members (registered members), like myself, should be allowed to view the avatars.

As for Gollnick's arguments:
True, the semi-nude avatars are not relevant to knife discussion, but neither are the vast majority of avatars used. I think it would remove some of the levity and fun of the forums if the avatars were regulated to only "knife related" material. In fact, you would'nt even be able to post your own avatar as it is not "relevant to knife discussion".

Why would you assume that the semi-clothed avatars are contributing to a negative perception and stereotype?
Why do some folks equate "nude with negative"?
Maybe someone sees them and figures "Hey, these knife guys are just normal folks after all".
Most folks can see the reasoning for posting pictures of beautiful women (and men)--people have admire nudes thoughout history. It is perfectly normal.
But not everyone would think it was normal to admire something like a Spyderco Civilian. Posting pics like that could turn folks off just as much as pics semi-clothed women.

I also think that if someone was so easily discouraged to participate then they would certainly leave the forums when challenged on their views concerning knives or politics (as in the political forum).
When did people become so thin-skinned?
I think alot less folks would be discouraged by the avatars than folks who would feel welcomed by the avatars.

Allen.
 
While I do believe as Gollnick does, on point, I cannot change the way people want to portray themselves. Maybe this is how they want to show themselves to the world. After all, some guys show a picture of their favorite car.

There's just something about this issue that just offends some people, and it's an old debate. The nudes on WWII bombers, called 'nose art,' surely offended people; they got away with it because it was war, and 'boys will be boys.'

I don't get it either, it's a jacknife forum after all, but if this is how you face the world, so be it. However, then you must grant others to perceive you for that image, and you shouldn't get mad over it, it's your statement, not mine.
 
it would be pretty easy to extend your argument to include all avatars, unless they are specifically knife-related. I mean, your picture of yourself is irrelevant to a discussion of knives as well.


True, the semi-nude avatars are not relevant to knife discussion, but neither are the vast majority of avatars used.
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I did not say that they should be removed JUST because they are irrelevant.

They are irrelevant AND they are offensive to many people AND they discourage people who would otherwise participate or participate more AND they cause practical problems for many people AND they create a negative image for knives and the knife community.

Many people would find a picture of a knife offensive. Many people find discussions of what knife is best for self-defense or for gutting a deer offensive. But those things are relevant to the topic of this site. When things are offensive, when they discourage participation, when they create practical barriers to participation, AND they are unnecessary and irrelevant, when they are not contributing to the topic at hand AND they are detracting from the topic at hand, THEN I think they have no place here.
 
Gollnick,

I believe you, but I think the only conversation that is chilled is that with the guy and the avatar.

Sure, I don't answer every knut here. Several I don't glance at entirely; I see their avatar and 'glaze' over the prose.

But nudes or not, I always look for guys like Phil or Ken. Sure, there might be two dozen over-zealous hacks with little to say, but that doesn't effect a hot topic from Phil. Sometimes you just let the baby have the rattle.
 
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