Can welding problems.

J. Keeton

J. Keeton

Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Messages
1,218
Ok, I tried my first can weld today. Unfortunately it was a semi-failure. I did it with an old Harley chain and some 4600E powder in a 2.5 by 2.5 in by 1/8in can. I believe I messed up in my prep work more than anything. I got overly anxious in the prep work section of putting the can together. The chain I used was very lightly rusted. I feel this had to be the cause of the flaws in my billet. Even know there were flaws I figured I would etch it anyway to see the contrast which turned out just fine. The loss of materials and time hurts, but at least I learned something. It would of been nice too because after I drew out the can, I cut it in two pieces then put a 1965 big twin main shaft in as a core. Tomorrow I plan to make one out of CLEAN roller bearings and some valve springs.

My only question is: "Were My flaws caused by using the rusty chain." It seems like a no brainer but I must know.

Any tips are welcome.

Thanks,
 
I dont feel the rust would be that big of a problem.Getting the powder in all the nooks and crannys might cause some flaws.Ive found Chain to be a PITA no matter how you work it.
 
I don't know about 4600 because I use 4800. but I do now that I mix mine 2 parts 1084 to 1 part 4800. The rust should not have caused a problem but if it was going to cause a problem it would have been only in the outside surface of the bar, which should have been easily ground off.
Did you vibrate the can as you was putting in the powder to make sure it was settling good and removing all voids.

Have fun,

Bill
 
Is the 4600E powder a metal. I'm just getting started and have never heard of it. Granted there are of lot of things i have never heard of, just curious. Knowledge is power. And right now in the knife making world I am very underpowered. Thanks for the info
 
B . Buxton said:
Did you vibrate the can as you was putting in the powder to make sure it was settling good and removing all voids.
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Try using a palm sander to vibrate all the powder in.That part worked for me,but nothing else did :)
 
dozuki,
Yes it is an atomized metal powder.4600E is a nickel/molybdenum/steel alloy.You make canister damascus by placing the metal objects in the canister ("can") and filling all the voids with powdered metal.You weld a top on to keep out oxygen. Then you heat it up to welding temperature and compress the can in a hydraulic press,or power hammer.Once you reduce the can into a solid mass,you remove the can and work out the block into a billet.Since you often don't know what it will look like until it is finished,there is a lot of disappointment with a bad weld-up,and a lot of pleasure from a good looking bar of damascus when it all comes together.Once only the realm of a few makers,mosaic damascus and can damascus is being tried by lots of people now.Some of the results are amazing.I saw a knife a while back that had "HAPPY BIRTHDAY DAD" repeated throughout the blade.
Stacy
 
Rust is not a problem in a closed weld (can weld) oil, grease, paper, plastic, glue, tape are no trouble either. I know because I use these materials in creating my mosaics. You must soak the can at welding heat to make sure it's heated to the center. Also you must forge it down slowly and evenly, keeping it square until it becomes solid (slow even reduction until it is solid)
 
My can is about 3.5 - 4in long and 2.5 x 2.5 x 1/8. Do you think 45min is a long enough soak at welding temps? Also can flawed scrap pieces of damascus be put into a can?, or will the flaws show on the finished piece?
 
Jim the size of the can doesn't make any difference, watch the colors of the can as it heats. When the can becomes almost transparent looking , meaning No dark spots anywhere in the can, I then let it soak for another 15 minutes or so before I squeeze on it. Like Don said, slow even reduction, this will take many heats, I only reduce my cans evenly 1/8" per welding heat until its solid, some will say thats to slow, but if I'm going to put this much time into a mosaic bar I would rather go slow then to risk screwing up the bar by hurrying. After getting the can up to welding heat the first time, it doesn't take that long to reheat and soak on the continuous heat. You'll feel the bar getting stiffer and stiffer as you reduce it, once it gets real stiff you can then work it more aggressively, just take your time slow until then.

You'll get it, Good luck,

Bill
 
With Chain, Cable and twist steel I work into a square bar and massage the steel with long dies to prevent excessive growth in length. I forge lightly and turn frequently other the course of 4-5 heats. This will help eliminte voids, and compresses the material. With much movement like in twists, several thermal cycles before flatting is beneficial...Take Care...Ed
 
Sweany said:
Didja use a hammer or a press to weld the can?
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I used a press.

Ed Schempp said:
With Chain, Cable and twist steel I work into a square bar and massage the steel with long dies to prevent excessive growth in length. I forge lightly and turn frequently other the course of 4-5 heats. This will help eliminte voids, and compresses the material. With much movement like in twists, several thermal cycles before flatting is beneficial...Take Care...Ed
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice I'll make sure to take my time next time.
 
J. I didn't see anyone else address this, so I will. You asked if you can put flawed scraps of damascus in the can.
Bad Idea. Grind or cut the flaws out and the you can put them in the can. No matter how small they are, they will still add to the pattern.
Its kinda like putting rotten eggs in a cake.
Thanks,
Del
 
delbert ealy said:
J. I didn't see anyone else address this, so I will. You asked if you can put flawed scraps of Damascus in the can.
Bad Idea. Grind or cut the flaws out and the you can put them in the can. No matter how small they are, they will still add to the pattern.
Its kinda like putting rotten eggs in a cake.
Thanks,
Del
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I agree with Damascus Del.:thumbup: :thumbup: I will bead blast anything that goes into the can.:thumbup:
 
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