Can you use a rock to sharpen a knife?

Say what you want about 420HC as a steel, but you can actually sharpen the stuff with a rock. I have a Camillus ArcLite in this steel and it works in a pinch. Alarion mentioned river rock. Around here, river rock is everywhere. You can find a good rounded stone that will allow you to get at the recurve shape well enough. An old newspaper does a decent job at the end for a makeshift strop.

I definitely wouldn't recommend doing this on everything. But with the ArcLite being 20 bux a pop, I don't feel guilty. Especially when I'm out camping and such, I'm not carrying any sharpening equipment with me, so I just go ahead and rock and roll on it.
 
I've talked with Wayne Barton, the world's best chip wood carver. He said once on a lecture tour he was asked to carve something for someone. They found a knife for him to use, but it was horrendously dull. He hung out the window of his hotel room, and sharpened it on the underside of the sandstone window sill. Then he finished the honing on the porcelain sink. Pretty cool.
 
bladefixation :

its definately possible to get a razor edge with a natural stone, look at arkansas whetstones...

Yes, however it is far from trivial to pick out a suitable grade of stone. Current opinion is that Arkansas stones have also be degrading in quality and getting the surgical grade ones is difficult now as consistency seems to be low. There are also Japanese natural waterstones. They are however ~$1000 a shot as it is even harder to find ones of quality and far from trivial to make this judgement.

How dull an edge are you willing to work with. If you go low enough you can "sharpen" an edge on anything. The higher your standard for sharpness, the better the abrasive you will need. For most modern knives, field sharpening on a rock isn't really a concern without weeks of constant use. Knowing how to use your knife to preserve the edge is as important or more.

"Rock sharpenability" is more hype than substance. All knives can be sharpened on rocks, I have done it with even very hard stainless steels like VG-10. Some are faster, like soft low carbon machete blades (~45 RC), because they will be more readily filed, but they also go blunt far quicker. And also the softer steels can't be made to cut as well as the harder and stronger steels, because they need a thicker cross section for any given cutting task.

-Cliff
 
This depends of what you are considering as sharpening. I don’t want to repeat what Cliff said because he hit the nail into this question. I would like to add my $0.02 only.
It is definitely impossible to profile properly shaped cutting wedge unless you would find a rock with regular shape, say flat.

Being in wilderness and considering that I have forgot my field sharpener at home or lost it I would try to do something to straighten and align my edge after each cutting work to do not allow it to get decently dull. Steeling on buddy’s blade spine, stropping on my belt etc are only some of methods, greatly probably it would be possible to find much more if required.
This way I would prolong my knife sharpness for pretty long time to sharpen it decently when I’ll come back to my home.

But definitely don’t allow your blade to lose its cutting wedge – you will not be able to restore it using rock only. Even if you will find suitably hard rock, for ex. quartz based stone (sandstone) with adequately smooth surface. Additionally this is pretty hard task in some areas where relatively soft dolomites with pretty irregular surface are in strong majority as like at the area where I live.

Young Cutter,
Obsidian or so-called volcanic glass is very uniform, fairly hard but also quite brittle material. Aztecs have made obsidian knives chipping it out to shape and sharpness but no way grinding against any other stone. Such knives had an edge what could be considered as the precursor of modern serrated one.
 
Bottom line to this whole thread....I assume...is a wilderness situation, not sharpening a tool for eye surgery. With the right stone found in the wilderness, you can do a very good job. Actually quartz is a substance that lends itself well to minor touch-ups but it's way too hard to remove metal. The secret to the whole process is using a material that will break-down during the sharpening process thus exposing more sharp micro-grain surfaces. Adding a little water to sandstone makes a great sharpening stone. Down here we find two fairly flat pieces of sandstone, add a little water, rub them together, and you can produce a flat enough surface on them to be more than sufficient for sharpening wilderness blades. As much as we would like to think it, wilderness blades are not freakin' rocket science. If you want perfect angles and absolute sharpness then carry something capable of producing it. More than likely you will spend more time in the house sharpening your blades than you will using them if you're that much of a perfectionist though. I'm sorry but all of this scientific bullshit translates into very little in the real world when you have to make do with what's available.
 
Originally posted by JeffRandall
I'm sorry but all of this scientific bullshit translates into very little in the real world when you have to make do with what's available.

Well said, brother Randall, can I get an amen? ;)
 
Along the same line as the original post, anyone ever use nail filer (those in manicure set) for sharpening and result please?
 
Jeff,
Scientific approach is not always bullshit. Especially if it is backed with a small bit of practical experience.
I have a very nice, large and flat piece of quite hard sandstone what I use to restore flat surface of natural sharpening stones, including arkansas ones using exactly the method you have described. Flattening a 20x5 centimeters large piece what is worn out for just about 1 mm at the middle takes me some hours. I’m just curious how long you are going to rub one against another completely irregular surfaces to make them more or less flat...
As for me – greatly probably this cold take me so much time and effort that finally I would forget what I have needed my knife for...
Actually quartz is a substance that lends itself well to minor touch-ups but it's way too hard to remove metal.
Hmm, just curious to know what do you think a sand under your feet and sandstones are “made” of? In fact quartz particles are the base of almost each sharpening stone, for ex. arkansas (however some exclusions are also known). Is this stone suitable for sharpening or no – this is mostly the question of the matrix they are embedded in.
 
I would change your statement to read: A lot of practical experience and mixed with a little science is a good thing.

Sure, sandstone is silica based like quartz. The difference is in crystal size and what holds it all together. Quartz to us "practical" folks is the quartz found in creek beds and the larger crsytals found in geodes, etc. We use it as a striker for flint and steel because of its hardness and ability to sharp fracture. Sandstone will not sharp fracture well and instead breaks down to expose more micro-quartz sharp edges - just like a good grinding stone used in blanchard or surface grinding hard tool steel. I'm sure we could get into the "science" behind it but it doesn't mean anything in the field when I need a rock to sharpen or strike. Experience tells me what will work regardless of the chemical makeup.

Bottom line: If I'm stuck in the wilds do I want a scientist with little practical experience or a common sense illiterate that has found what works through trial and error. Personally I would rather the scientist stay at home if that's my only choices.
 
Just to add my .02,
I have found that using a belt or pack strap and loading it with fine abbrasive material, like fine sand, or river silt as has been mentioned, is by far the most effective improvised sharpening means.
If your edges are fully convex you can leave the strap fairly slack, if the edge does not yet have any convexity to it, supporting the strop on a long log or even you leg will be helpful.
As has been stated, softer simpler steels will yeild results better and faster than highly alloyed, very hard steels using improvised methods. The sttel on Swiss army knives is very easy to take to a keen edge using only improvised means, another reason I consider the SAK to be the "Ulitimate" survival knife.
If an edge is kept sharp, that is not allowed to dull excessively, then aligning with a smooth rock or piece of glass can suffice. As most of blade dulling, in my experience as well as others, is from deformation and not the edge being worn away, if you are vigilant you can keep your edge sharp with out a problem.
There are those who have asserted that a slightly duller edge is fine, even perferable in a "survival" situation. I disagree. A sharp edge will alow you to complete tasks with a minimum of expended calories compared to a dull edge, and it is axiomatic that a sharp edge is safer than a dull one.
When I am away from medical treatment, in the woods, that is the last place I want to seriously get cut, the chance of infection is too great. In addition, being injured can be a killer on morale, and it is mental attitude that is the real survival tool.
For me, it is very easy to carry a EZlap type M or S hone with me, they are light and used often. There are many small, light sharpening devices on the market. Just as a gun with out bullets is a club, a dull knife is a tent stake. A person concerned with preparedness should carry a means to keep his knife protected and sharp. A GI key chain sharpener weighs next to nothing, as does the little lansky stick.

In summary, I feel that skill and mental attitude make a real outdoorsman not tools and flashy gear. Whether you develop the proper mind set and requisite skills in your backyard or 3000 miles away makes no difference, the important thing is getting out there and doing it. Live life, enjoy the outdoors and as George Sears wrote "Smooth it".

Take care,
Chad
 
I think some folks are getting so caught up in their own BS, they lost track of the original question. The question was can you sharpen your knife on a rock if that's all you have? The answer is unequivocally YES. In fact, I'd have to say if you've never been in a situation where you had to sharpen a knife on a rock at sometime in your life then you shouldn't even be posting in this thread, because your real life field experience is insufficient to know this answer or a lot of other issues about using knives in the field.
 
Jeff,
Bottom line: If I'm stuck in the wilds do I want a scientist with little practical experience or a common sense illiterate that has found what works through trial and error. Personally I would rather the scientist stay at home if that's my only choices.
This looks like in your opinion the combination of scientifically based approach and practical experience is impossible in one person...
Scientific approach verses common sense – hmm, pretty fresh idea. Maybe I’m wrong but seems that humanity have made enough trials and errors and no one is doomed to teach himself on his own ones. It could be enough to search what others did.

Sorry, but you have skipped the prognoses how long you are going to rub one against other two irregular pieces of sandstone (hard enough to deal with steel) to get them flat on at least some square inches... No wilderness experience is required here, everyone can find such pieces at his backyard and try.
Please don’t hesitate to call me when you will finish... :)
 
Forget the sandstone, most everyone I've ever hunted with has at one time or another simply found a smooth, flat piece of river rock (geologically imprecise) and used it to hone his blade. That's been done successfully for hundreds of years, absent any scientific knowledge of the matter of any kind. This isn't rocket science.
 
chad :

There are those who have asserted that a slightly duller edge is fine, even perferable in a "survival" situation. I disagree.

Yes, it simply makes everything harder, which is fine if you want more of a challenge, and is akin to going without food to put yourself in a weakened state. In an actual situation though where you don't have the ability to leave when you want, would it not be best to keep yourself (and your equipment) as close to 100% as possible so that you are maximally prepared to handle any task. Take your rock sharpened machete and one sharpened by R.J. Martin and see if you don't immediately notice a huge difference in cutting ability.

It isn't just as narrow as sharpness either. You can also make due with a blade balance that isn't suitable for the task at hand, a point that is far too narrow or too thick, or a handle that is slippery or very abrasive. You can also make due with blisters on your feet and a heavy sun burn, a multitide of insect bites, leeches, (done all of the above when forced to), however, is it advisible to induce those situations when they can be avoided .

A person concerned with preparedness should carry a means to keep his knife protected and sharp.

Yes, though you should not go so far the other way. As with any viewpoint, the extremes are usually not the best path. You should be prepared to make do without parts or your gear, even all of it. So rock sharpening (or whatever) is a solid skill to have, but simply vastly overhyped. You also can't use a knife in the same manner when it is far below optimal either, for example when chopping you have to come it at more obtuse angles to prevent glancing. So experience with rock edges (or whatever) is obviously useful.

Whether you develop the proper mind set and requisite skills in your backyard or 3000 miles away makes no difference

You can develop the skills anywhere, but the mindset is difficult to turn on in situations where it isn't demanded. For example do you drive with the same care in the dead of winter as you do in the summer. It is a different thing to build a shelter in your backyard where you know if you fail that you can just go inside, rather than out in the cold and rain where if you don't get inside quickly you will be trouble.

How many of us for example, tend to do outside knife work when the weather is close to optimal. This can be lead to problems. For example ,how do you chop with a wooden handled axe in heavy rain. You can't use a normal swing, and are forced to choke up very high on the axe, and/or use much less force. This then forces you to work in much tighter pockets.

There are ways around the last situation, I for example carry some grip tape for working in the rain. It is much the same in the cold, but it is even worse in the extremes as your fingers will start to lose the ability to tightly grasp the axe. Plus working with heavy gloves is very different from bare handed work as well. In any case, it is just a matter of experience.

On experience vs understanding, while it is true that you can know when something works without knowing the how or why, your viewpoint will be severely limited. Without knowing the details you can't make any conclusions about situations that are different.

For example all the axe men around here from one generation ago grew up with steels that were left very soft (~50 RC), because to exceed that left them brittle. However advancements in steel and heat treating mean you can exceed this now without harm. Yet you give these people a 57 RC Gransfors and they will automatically judge it too hard and therefore brittle as it will not file readily. You can't fault their experience, however, without understanding, it is severely limited in application.

Theory without experiment is a flawed path, it can lead you to truth, but also way off track. So can the opposite. In reality, people doing scientific work blend the two, either by themselves, or more commonly with others, as people tend to excell at different things. Often you will find one group just collecting information and then another group trying to figure out how it is all related and the fundamental laws that govern the relationships. And yes, you do get out the lab and look at reality when you can. It is in doing so that you get to see the wonder of science, as it can sometimes be lost in a test tube.

Sergiusz, what is being glossed over in the above, is that if you are suddenly forced to have to rely on a rock, you of course don't want until your knife is excessively dull before you go looking for one. If you find yourself in such a situation, then looking for sharpening tools is very high on your list. And while your knife is still very sharp, you are gathering and refining your sharpening equipment.

-Cliff
 
I have read this thread and came up with a question that has me absolutely perplexed:

HOW and WHY can a stone used to sharpen cost $1,000 and is there NOT a point where a knife can simply be no sharper?

Stones sharpen knives,all the old slipjoints I buy at flea Martkets and yard sales bare the evidence to show that it worked long before I was born, and some are scratched to hell, but are pretty damn sharp.

Does it require a degree as a scientist and a $1,000.00 Japanese stone to get a cutting edge on a knife?

I am serious, I cannot for the life of me understand how or why a set of stones need to cost a grand. How did they sharpen scalpels during the civil war?
 
Why does a diamond or gold cost as much as it does - because it is rare, same thing for natural japanese waterstones, the man made ones are cheap. The main advantage of the natural Japanese stones, is the soft cutting action which is well suited to the Japanese cutting tools which run very thin edges at 64+ RC and thus are easily damaged. As well the standard for sharpness, and cutting ability in general, is in general much higher for japanese tools than western ones.

With very hard steels at very low angles, I have seen breakouts with man made hones. This does not prevent you from getting razor sharpness, but this isn't anywhere near optimal. I have not determined yet though if I am seeing the effect of alloy or abrasive, as both may be playing a part. Japanese steels used for cutting tools are also more refined than western ones, usually lower impurities which again allows a finer level of sharpness. Though there are many very pure western cutlery grades, CPM and otherwise.

The only comparison I have seen was from Lee, and he was able to produce the highest standard of sharpness with man made hones. However he did note that if you are using traditional Japanese cutlery, you might benefit from the natural stones. He did not do a definate comparison on those blades. If this was done, I doubt that it would effect the market, as a lot of it is simply tradition.

-Cliff
 
Originally posted by wolfmann601


Does it require a degree as a scientist and a $1,000.00 Japanese stone to get a cutting edge on a knife?


Nope not at all, not even close. Especially on the scientist part. If it does then someone needs to tell all these primtive tribes that still exist that they need some schooling and a special stone to continue surviving. This whole premise is laughable. Engineers without field experience seem to have a way of bullshitting their inexperience and transforming simple logic into some complicated process to cover up for their total lack of field experience. I would love to see some of these scientists take their best edge up against a primitive user and his edge and see who is more efficient.

Again, so it's plain: If I'm stuck in the wilds do I want a scientist with little practical experience or a common sense illiterate that has found what works through trial and error. Personally I would rather the scientist stay at home if that's my only choices.

Let me expand on that....I would much rather have a person with practical experience that doesn't have a blade on him than a scientist with little practical experience but possessing a truckload of blades.
 
JeffRandall :

If it does then someone needs to tell all these primtive tribes that still exist that they need some schooling and a special stone to continue surviving.

By the same logic you should not learn how to start a fire, as primitives have survived without this as well, and go back to flint knives. As for who to pick as a companion, that often has little to do with who to learn from. An indivual who excells may in fact be a poor teacher. The reverse is true as well on occasion, as well as all manner of inbetween.

Science has given modern man many advantages, for outdoor living (and other things of course) in regards to fire starting, cutlery, signaling, navigation, clothing, water purification, hunting etc. . I am not going to make the argument that you should forget the past, as you could easily be without your ideal gear, however being blind to the present is hardly ideal either.

-Cliff
 
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