Canada and Quebec

I don't know much about it. For my lifetime at least, Quebec has considered itself seperate culturally from the rest of Canada.

Does the rest of the world care if Quebec seperates?



munk
 
Take a look at "Canadian connection" forums :S People are on fire against Quebecers and Separatists and I wanted the opinion of neutral open-minded peoples.
 
My opinion? I don't actually have one. I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm not familiar with the area and I don't fully understand the problem.

Why does Quebec want to leave, and why is the rest of Canada against this in the first place?

In fact, let's set aside cultural differences and emotions for a moment and return to more worldly concerns -- if Canada decides to let Quebec go, who will pay for all of this? Is Quebec materially ready for independance? I'd be surprised if the US and Canada didn't lend assistance if asked, but one should not take this for granted, either.

In any event it would serve the citizens of Quebec not to unduly aggravate the rest of Canada; regardless of whether independance is ever achieved or not, your neighbors on two sides will still be Canadians at the end of the day. (Three, if you count the Hudson Bay.) It wouldn't do well to part on unfavorable terms.
 
It really isnt as clear cut as Quebec wants to seperate canada wants to keep it. The last two referendum (or di I really dont know), quebecers have chosen to stay, albeit by a narrow margin. There are also lots of canadians outside of quebec who really dont care if they go. Personaly I think everyone would be worse off if they seperated. Quebec is hardly economicaly viable on its own, and where would the canadain hockey team get its goalies. Quebec would also then face seperatist movements from the largly native north west area, I may be wrong but during the last referendum threats were made to that effect. Joking aside though, its a little outdated to assume that every nation needs its own state, that brand of radical nationalism generaly only leads to harm. I do believe in self determination however, so if quebec votes to leave that is their perogative.
 
I'm close enough to Canada to know this much: I'd much rather debate this here than in a bar in quebec!!:eek: Hot button issue to be sure.

Like Dave I don't know enough about it to comment. (my apologies. due to being in the middle of preparing a presentation for monday I don't have time to research it)
 
As a Canadian, I'd much rather have Quebec in Canada. Part of my understanding of the national identity.

The recent flaming row is related to the use of that word, "national." Both in English, and even more in French, the word "national" has two meanings. One's political (i.e. political sovereignty, autonomy), and another's sociological (i.e. a self-recognized cultural community). The Separatists have always had a minority of Quebecers interested in political sovereignty, but have intentionally muddied the waters regularly, flipping between the two meanings of the word "national," to try and trick the swing voters to go with them.

I support the idea of Quebec as a "nation" in the sociological sense - anybody who's spent any time at all in Quebec knows that the place is indeed different from the rest of Canada. But so's Newfoundland, which is equally a sociological "nation." So's the Francophone part of Atlantic Canada, which doesn't identify with Quebec, but does understand itself to be an Acadian "nation." Our aboriginal peoples are also called "first nations" here, for exactly this reason.

Clarifying what's meant by the term, and forcing the Separatists to stop swishing from one definition to the other depending on what gives them political advantage, is what the most recent stuff is about. I support it - and support Quebec, as a sociological nation, within a Politically unified Canada.
 
I agree Tom. Nation is a tricky term, even within political science circles no one can really agree on a definition, what makes up a nation? Shared history? Language? Culture? Ethnicity? Geography? who knows... It definatly does not mean a politicaly autonomus entity though, that is a state.
These days esentialy all states are nation-states but not all nations have states. The nation state system has not worked particularly well since its creation in the 1600s. I agree with Tom, quebec is definatly a nation but that does not mean it has to be a nation-state.
 
There was a long discussion of this in Whine & Cheese recently: A New Country.

I think the key to the problem is the concept of nation as a sociological construct rather than a political entity. I don't think Quebecers generally either want or understand the difficulties inherent in political independence. But the constant controversy gives them a lever to extort other benefits from the central government.

Edit: I should add, I strongly support their cultural autonomy, which I believe enriches their neighbors as well as themselves.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Edit: I should add, I strongly support their cultural autonomy, which I believe enriches their neighbors as well as themselves.
Click to expand...

Esav, this is one of the few times we differ. Just watching the Quebec autonomy struggle (especially at close range for eleven years while in Detroit, and having to function with RCMP in Quebec at that time) I saw at first hand what allowing people to insist on having everything done officially in two languages can cause.....try getting an affidavit and search warrant in a hurry!

We in the United States are just now seeing the tip of the iceberg, as Hispanics begin to demand services in Spanish here in the U.S. Every country should have ONE official language, and citizens who wish to speak something else in their own home may do so, but should operate in the language of their chosen country in public. Learning and speaking the same language from kindergarten on is a unifing influence, and two or more languages are divisive....creating us and them situations. My country right or wrong, but MY country. If Quebec wants to go it alone...O.K. Let's see if she can stand alone. If not, she rejoins Canada speaking English, and for those in the United States who want to speak Spanish, let them return to a country that does. I have little sympathy for those who say they want to join us, then upon arriving want to dictate major changes in our way of life.

If we allow this language thing to proceed, it will indeed be the iceberg that rips out the bottom foundation of our ship of state.
 
I see Canada and the US as facing different situations. The US has always relied on English as its unifying language. Canada explicitly accepted Quebec as a Francophone province. Problems, yes, but not insuperable.

In the US, the question of Spanish (or other local languages) has been imposed recently, and is legitimately conflated with the parallel problem of illegal immigration. Legal immigrants to the US have overwhelmingly learned English quickly.

I also believe that the welfare state mentality is largely at fault for the lack of English in many of these communities. With no handouts, a job is a necessity. With no English, a decent job is hard to find.
 
I was born in Quebec. I've heard the Separatists' BS for years. The bottom line is this: Quebec wants to decide it's own future without Canada's input, but it wants Canada to support it financially and without borders. In the doing, squash the English language and force everyone who immigrates to Quebec to learn French and become good little Quebecers. The rest of Canada is 50/50 on whether or not Quebec is even wanted any more. The Western provinces are sick to death of hearing Quebec whine all the time.
All of this has created economic instability in Quebec... nobody wants to invest in a shaky situation.
If Quebec separates, Canada won't lose... Quebec will. Major companies will pull out and the unemployment rate will explode. Who will pay for the Unemployment benifits? That's Federal... Canada. Oh, wait... Gone.
Most of the poor saps who support this Sovereigntist ideology have been tricked and lied to about how good things will be without Canada. They can't see the truth. A few years ago, one dumb s-o-b said that Quebec would annex itself to the U.S. and the American gov't would protect the French language. Yeah, right. That'll happen.
All ranting aside now... sorry, it's a touchy subject with an Anglo from Quebec... this is an old song and dance done by Politicos that need to keep their jobs. It'll never happen. Quebec's future lies within Canada. That's the way it is and the majority of Quebecers know that. Don't believe the Sovereigntists' point of view. It's emotional... not logical.
I'm in Ottawa, Ontario now. I still cringe when I hear a rude Quebecer insisting to be served in French. I'm fluent, myself... so sometimes I want to give them a piece of my mind. But it'll fall on deaf ears... so I don't.
I love my country... ALL of it... and ALL together.
 
There is a difference between "recent immigrants" and Quebecers. I'm from Quebec city. Next year, it will be Quebec's 400th birthday. That city was founded by French speaking people and we want it to stay that way.

As you see, I doesn't make me a closed minded frog. I learned English at school, I even was in a special program to learn it faster. I was shocked when I went by a touristic village in Gaspésie and the guy at the drugstore was barely able to communicate with American tourist.

I think everyone should be able to speak English, even if it's not perfectly, but also that French should stay the official language.
 
I was VERY unhappy when NYC sent me my upcoming elections notices in English, Spanish, and Chinese. If we are citizen enough to vote, we're citizen enough to exercise our rights in English.

But I'm a bit of a bug on language. I think loss of cultural diversity is bad for humanity as a whole, and language is key to retaining culture. There is little need to insist on English in a world where English confers such an economic advantage.

In fact, I wish schools would award extra credit for study of local language, like Spanish in New York. Language study is a positive benefit from many points of view, and community cohesion is one of them.

But without a mandated English base in the US, we are doomed to sectarian conflict.
 
See, here's the thing... I speak French. Learning a second language never hurt anyone. I have no problem with French being the official language in Quebec. I do, however, have a problem with the ignorant bastards who believe that squashing Anglo rights in order to boost their own is the way to go
Here's a real scenario... I worked for a company that had a delivery van. On quiet days, I helped the driver. He spoke 99% French. He told me that he wanted to learn more English, and I told him I wanted to practice my French. So, we talked 50/50 and helped each other with words and expressions. That's the thing the Parti-Quebecois would never want to see... An Anglo and a Franco being friends... being brothers. Working together. The PQ want sectarianism for their own gain. They care nothing for the people... only for themselves and their own future. Rene Levesque was the only man who would have made Separation work... for everyone... including the rest of Canada.
I love Quebec. I always will. But I worry about it. I worry that this political foolishness will cause more harm than good. Quebec is a powerful province already. So much so that most of the recent Canadian Prime Ministers have come from Quebec and just from Quebec votes alone, a Federal oppsition party was elected to Parliment. That's power. How much more does Quebec need? The power to decide it's future? It has that and more already. Separation needs to come off the political table and Quebec needs to focus on stabilizing it's economy and helping it's people.
 
Seperate Canada along these lines, the eastern Provinces will soon enough become part of the United States out of a sense of isolation.
 
I agree with that scenario, execpt that it won't be to Quebec's benefit. Sure, the economy and way of life over-all would improve as opposed to no longer being part of Canada... but if they want to protect their French-speaking status, remaining within Canada guarentees that. On their own, or as part of the United States or whomever else, they can kiss that good-bye. Personally, I love this country, but I wouldn't hate being part of the United States either. Both countries have something to offer me by way of life and individual freedoms. As a Canadian, I'm happy to have the United States as a neighbor.
 
I can easily see the western provinces accepted into the Union if Canada were to fragment. The eastern Maritimes are almost a second Maine. :)

Quebec? Highly doubtful we would take them in. Why borrow someone else's sorrow? Why take on a province that destroyed the last country it was part of?
 
Maybe the First Nation people will decide that they should separate from Quebec and demand that all people speak their language. I'm sure that would not go very far.
 
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