canister damascus?

Joined
Sep 6, 2002
Messages
106
I really want to find out about canister damascus and how it's done, but I can't find anything searching here or anywhere else. Does anyone know of a tutorial or instructions on can damascus? I'm also looking for the same on frontier damascus- any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Chris
 
If you enlarge the pictures on www.damasteel.se you will see some comparison between folded and canister types of damascus. The process is to layer stainless steel powder of two different types into a canister.Air is then evacuated and the canister sealed .The canister is then heated and compressed to bond the powder then rolled out......What do you mean by frontier damascus ?
 
Thanks for the info Mete- I didn't know that can damascus was stainless only. I've seen reference to frontier damascus several times here in the last 2 mos. or so and it refers to damascus utilizing bits and pieces I believe, but I got the feeling there was more to it.
I've been thinking about enclosing a stack of laminations with side panels and the ends welded shut to keep out oxygen- do you see any problems with the idea?
 
Damasteel does it with stainless but there is no reason I can think of that you couldn't do it with alloy or carbon. When you get stuff in a can it should be evacuated (vacuum) or at least purged with nitrogen to remove oxygen. I know someone is doing crucible (can ) damascus as they did the original 'wootz' damascus so a search here or at www.swordforum.com for comments or someone has a tutorial. There are smiths who do damascus starting with a stack of strips without making a can.
 
Carbon steel mosaics are primarily made in a can. The little figures you see almost always are. Nearly all home 'smiths doing can work use high carbon and low-alloy steel.

A mix of powdered steels of varying alloys (1084 powder and 4600 or 4800 A or E are common), barstock like 15N20, and nickel sheet to make "boundaries" (cookie cutters) along with nickel or nickel-bearing steel rod (NOT Nickel Silver) are mixed in various way inside a piece of "can", ie, thin walled square tubing steel or muffler pipe to make a figure of some sort. A bottom is welded on a can before filling. Some times a piece of cardboard is included, sometimes WD40; the purpose is to act as an oxygen scavenger at temps below the welding temp. Vacuum evacuation or gas purging would be tough in the home shop, and unnecessary, as a lid is then welded on top and a handle welded on. Some leave a pinhole in the lid for escaping gasses. Otherwise, the ends bulge bigtime. The can is heated to welding temp, held "quite awhile", and then compressed longitudinally, and "squarely", to minimize pattern distortion while the powder compresses and welds. Minimizing distortion is a key skill development.

The billet is then drawn out and maintained squared. The pattern will run down the center of the billet, unseen except from the end. Often, the can is removed by grinding. One can then draw and stack in a "cube", as many times as desired, rewelded w/o the can, and redrawn to a "squared" long piece ala "regular damascus". When finished with pattern development, the billet is then zigzag "accordian cut" (picture bellows) and flattened to open. This results in a series of repeating figures, aka "mosaic tiles". The possibilities are endless.

Stainless is it's own beast, and almost ceartainly has to be made in a can to provide an oxy-free environment. I know of few who have tried that, but have been told it will weld barstock successfully in a can. Damasteel and their powder process succeed marvelously in a slightly different circumstance. Nice stuff.

Hope that helps a bit. It's a pretty advanced technique, and having a press is most very helpful.
 
I thought I had seen it recently - do a search for new member Ariel Salaverria.
 
Mete & Fitzo- Thanks for the info and excellent explanation! That was more than I expected and very useful. My idea should work if my arm holds out. Which brings up another question- Would a hydraulic bottle jack (automobile type) work as a press for damascus if it were rigged up properly?
They might be too slow for welding but maybe not- and a lot cheaper than a press or power hammer.
 
Hey Mike, I was hoping someone would write some explanation up!! Thanks. I don't forge but I sure am interested. I will print this out for future review. Frank.
 
You're welcome, guys.

C, you can weld a billet of laminate damascus with nothing more than a hammer just fine. Pop it down the center with overlapping blows rapidly, then work the outside edges. Truly, on welding heats, you don't want to hammer the heck out of it, as it will sideslip and break your weld. Weld, then draw on subsequent heats. You can learn to look at the billet and read the welds. A vise with large jaws is just as effective for welding. Heat it, squeeze it hard as you can. After welding, heat it back up, pull it out and watch the edges. If the lines where the steel meets seems to go black more rapidly than the rest, it isn't welded. As my bud Bowie says, "Get the conditions right (temp, steels, and cleanliness), make 'em 'meet' each other, and they can't really do anything BUT weld".

Where the power tools really come in handy is for drawing those puppies out to fold them, and for large billets. By starting with higher layer counts (thin stock), a man with some stamina can make a hellacious piece of damascus by hand in a day. (Not for me anymore)

As far as can damascus goes, my honest opinion is that a powered hydraulic press is pretty necessary. The problem with a bottle jack manual setup is that, while the tonnage may be rated at, say, 20 tons, actually achieving that rapidly enough, if one can even crank it that much by arm, would cool the billet too much and there wouldn't be sufficient compression in a heat. you'd never get to where you want to be.

Don't let me totally discourage you, because determination counts for a lot; but, I would go to a hammer-in or visit a bladesmith making mosaics and see it made before I invested any money at home on non-power presses. Just my opinion, mind you. Another fine option with only hand tools (for laminate, not can) is to find a striker willing to wield a 12-16 pound sledge for a couple hours. I had a 400 pound student prior to getting a press, and, man, could he move some steel...LOL
 
I make quite a bit of cannister damascus. Here is a link to a cannister that was later drawn and twisted out for the carbine/axe combo. It has 1084, 15n20, 203E and 1018 powder metal core (that will be drilled out later to .58 cal. http://www.brucebump.homestead.com/shoptour.html

Oh there is also a pic of a billet that is getting accordian cut and will open up into a mosaic blade. Make sense?
 
A picture's worth a thousand words. Cool, Bruce! Great-looking twist on that billet!
 
Bruce, thanks for the link on your site about the canned Damascus! I'm trying a little of that myself, but so far just 1084 powder and 15n20. Made a simple pattern which came out ok, but would like to try something like our doing. What are the measurments of the can you use? Looks to be at least 3 x 3, and 6 long? Mine was 2.5 x 2.5 x 2 long. Did you use powder for a center core? Do you have a "finished" picture yet of how that can came out? Thanks again!
 
I bought a neck knife from J. Neilson in Atlanta and have an ongoing email session going on concerning the definition of frontier damascus. So far he's told me it's done the same as cannister but I'm unclear as to how it differs exactly. I'll shoot him another email and maybe he can add some more knowledge to this thread.

Larry S.
 
You've got some of the best folks possible here to answer any of these questions already but, I'll just poke in my info on frontier. The difference between frontier and other canister damascus steels is in frontier your using bits of damascus that have already been formed and cut off a blade blank. In other canister damascus you use non-damascus to make set, or approximately, set patterns. Bruce B., Bruce E. & George R. were the fellas who taught me to do it here on the forums. It's fun stuff to make but, you gotta make a bunch of damascus to supply the bits for a canister of frontier.
 
IG has posted a fair amount on Cannister Damascus. As far as the term "Frontier Damascus", I think Bruce Edwards first coined the term. I used to call mine junk box Damascus but he felt it was a little......misleading to his customers, and came up with the new name.

That was a little before the cannister Damascus started getting popular and it was all laminated, folded Damascus. At least as best as I can remember, The original formula was whatever you had on hand that was suitable to weld together and make a knife blade.

At first it was all random pattern and as might be expected, the artisans started making patterned billets and then cannister.

It is a very general term....kind of like coke (for any of the carbonated beverages) or Jeep (for any four wheel drive vehicle).
 
Frontier Damascus was the terminology the Bruce Evans gave it has a better ring the junk box and etc. In the past the blacksmiths wouldn’t let any steel go to waste. I have also done some in some SS heat treating foil. It makes welding chain Motorcycle , chainsaw & etc. real easy in a canister. I like putting a piece of 1084, 1095 or 5160 down the center of the canister and filling up the sides with chain, powder and nickel.
 
Bruce Edwards
Bruce Evans

Sorry Bruce....This is a classic example of typing when my mind has not yet started running for the day! :o
 
peter nap said:
Bruce Edwards
Bruce Evans

Sorry Bruce....This is a classic example of typing when my mind has not yet started running for the day! :o
Ya!!! What time does it start??? 11:00pm????
 
Ya!!! What time does it start??? 11:00pm????

You missed....I knew it was coming and have been hiding behind my coffee mug! :p
 
Guys my question to Bruce got sort of buried while he was at teh Blade show so I thought I'd ask this? On his link in his thread above, there's a neat photo of a can, with strips of metal in it. Is this "blade steel"? Will he fill in the middle with powder, or more pieces of steel? Also on his link, is the photo of his billet that he's marked for making into a "W" pattern. It looks to me like he's drilled holes, then cut out what will be the "waste" on a bandsaw, but how will these areas now be removed, since it's still connected to the billet? I appreciate any help, I'm intreged with the canned mosaics and Damascus, and have done only one, but it was a start!
 
Back
Top