Can't Get Rid of Cloudy Edges

cziv

cziv

Joined
Nov 24, 2005
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This blade is Duratech 20CV and is razor sharp. It's used often. It was originally reprofiled to approx. 36* inclusive using a DMT magna-guide.

I raised a burr at each hone starting with coarse and moving to fine, x-fine and xx-fine, followed my balsa strops with dia-paste 6, 3 and 1 micron. I've tried leather strops as well.

In all of my subsequent re-sharpenings I've done it freehand & never gone above a fine hone, followed by x-fine and xx-fine, followed my balsa strops with dia-paste 6, 3 and 1 micron and sometime just stropping.

Lately for touching up I use only the x-fine and xx-fine dia-fold and strop. I can't seem to get the cloudiness out of the edge. I don't think there are any more scratch patterns that need to be removed??

It looks like it has a haze on the edge in a lot of places but it won't sharpen or strop out any brighter. :confused:

Anyone got some suggestions to get this thing mirror polished? :)

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I probably wouldn't worry about it but if polished edges are your goal, I would suggest strong magnification so you can see what scratch patterns are not being removed.

Personally I find that with the really resistant steels, I need to strop a long time to bring a sheen (even with diamonds). Have you gotten a satisfactory sheen with 1 micron on other steels? I always felt like my sheen really started to bloom at finer grits ( as goofy as that may sound...1 micron is too big for a really deep luster).

Honestly though these days, I seem to get results I like withought going all the way to a reflective sheen. YMMV;)

Edit to add: are you sure your are not cross contaminating your strops?
 
From what I can see in the first picture it looks like the first setting of the bevel could have been worked on more and the bevel itself looks spotty. Second thing I see is random scratches from various stones with the largest in the belly and tip likely from the XC or C stone. If you are using the aligner I would recommend stopping at the EEF hone.

If you really want that polished edge then start from scratch and start spending lots of time with the C-EEF hones. C to F being the most important jump.
 
unit said:
I probably wouldn't worry about it but if polished edges are your goal, I would suggest strong magnification so you can see what scratch patterns are not being removed.

Personally I find that with the really resistant steels, I need to strop a long time to bring a sheen (even with diamonds). Have you gotten a satisfactory sheen with 1 micron on other steels? I always felt like my sheen really started to bloom at finer grits ( as goofy as that may sound...1 micron is too big for a really deep luster).

Honestly though these days, I seem to get results I like withought going all the way to a reflective sheen. YMMV;)

Edit to add: are you sure your are not cross contaminating your strops?
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knifenut1013 said:
From what I can see in the first picture it looks like the first setting of the bevel could have been worked on more and the bevel itself looks spotty. Second thing I see is random scratches from various stones with the largest in the belly and tip likely from the XC or C stone. If you are using the aligner I would recommend stopping at the EEF hone.

If you really want that polished edge then start from scratch and start spending lots of time with the C-EEF hones. C to F being the most important jump.
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I have often thought my strops "might be" cross contaminated. That paste is sticky stuff and sometimes I forget if I washed the blade off and dries it up befroe moving to the next strop.

I've taken as much steel off the blade as I care to at this point. I don't want to do another re-profile and cause it to look oversharpened and anemic. For future reference, I have to agree that I can't see enough of what's going on with my edge and need to get a stronger magnifying glass, Better than the cheapo "impulse bin" one that I bought at ACE.

Thanks guys. :)
 
The diapaste is oil based and is a bit more difficult to get off, a microfiber or a wash in the sink is usually needed. Also, though it looks dry the diapaste never dries.

As a picture reference your bevel on that steel should look more like this after the EEF.

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raising a small burr with your C, just enough to get started and rework it with you finer grits won't leave your blade anemic looking ... hopefully. :D
 
Hey CZiv, It's not the diapaste cross contamination, which I'm starting to believe is a fable anyway.
A little paste from a previous strop won't ruin your strop and there is not so much sticking to your edge to really make a difference. It 'dilutes' even more on the next strop. A quick swipe on your pants should get rid of most diapaste sticking to the edge. Then move on to the next strop.

There's definitely a lot of scratch patterns still visible, so they aren't removed from the previous grit/stone by the next grit / stone.

THe jump from Coarse to Fine is indeed an important one as knifenut pointed out. Take a little more time on each stone and really make sure the scratch pattern of the new stone has 'wiped out' the scratch pattern of the previous one. I'd start with Fine again on your knife, work up to XXF and then strop from 6 to 1 micron diapaste. The shine comes at about 3 micron and you'll start to see if there are any more areas that need work. 1 micron will give you very satisfactory edges.

my edges have a little haze too, depending on the refraction of the light / from where you look at it. But mostly I feel this is a problem of me not having the patience to go through all the stones in the progression with the right amount of time taken for each stone.


pretty doable on duratech-ed xm-18's :)
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i agree with unit. i had an old man that was a harley mechanic tell me that chrome wont make a harley go any faster. the same with a knife :D.
 
i had a member bring me a busse game warden that was sharpened (not) by another member on his home made contraption. it had a nice pretty shiny edge but was so dull you could let a little kid play with it and not worry about them getting cut.

cziv, you need to come down and check out the paper wheels.
 
While it is undeniable that polishing will not enhance performance to any significant degree, many of us choose to refine and polish our edges for aesthetic value.

I would suggest a return to balsa, and the use of .25 CBN spray followed by .125. Should you desire even more "shine," Mother's Billet Paste has performed exceptionally well for me on the highly abrasion resistant steels. :thumbup:

Remember as well, that the abrasion resistant steels require a considerably greater degree of effort, and are not polished quickly. :(
Nevertheless, in my opinion at least, the additional time and effort are well spent. :p

I believe it's referred to as "braggin' rights!":D
 
I spent a little bit of time and took the blade through a few passes on the coarse, about 4 on the fine, 5 on the x-fine and 6 on the xx-fine.

Apparently when I did the original sharpening, I didn't spend enough time trading off scratch patterns while going to the next lower stone and ended up with a very busy looking edge.

It looks better to me for now and in next sharpenings I'll be starting with fine and progressing down through my grits with more & lighter passes until it's nice and even. It looked much brighter than these pics before I stropped it on a 1 micron strop which dulled the shine. :confused:

The 2nd image has reflection of the white fabric in it that makes it look less fine than it turned out.

Richard I'll never use paper wheels but I appreciate the offer. :) Thanks for your opinions and assistance guys! :thumbup:

PS: I put a brand new XM-18 blade behind it and there's no visible difference in size that I can see, so it must not remove a ton of metal. I think I layed the stock edge back more than ground away any of the bottom of it.

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its too bad you wont consider paper wheels, they will make quick work of getting not only a mirror edge but a sharp edge which will wittle hair. spend some money and let richard show you what your missing if you dont wanna invest in a set of paper wheels yourself. you wont be sorry and you'll love your knifes a lot more after you see what a true sharp blade can do!

it really is hard to go back to a dull edge after you have felt/used a truly sharp blade!


P.s. it doesnt look like you go an even edge angle along the entire lenght of your blade. you might wanna check that and make sure your getting to the edge of your blade with a sharpie marker.
 
P.s. it doesnt look like you go an even edge angle along the entire lenght of your blade. you might wanna check that and make sure your getting to the edge of your blade with a sharpie marker.
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I think you're seeing a result of the blade shape of the XM-18. I wouldn't want to remove enough steel to make it look like the edge on a straight, FFG blade. Thanks!

zyhano said:
I agree with this. I love how sharp I can get my knives with the sharpmaker

:p
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You're kidding right?
 
cziv said:
You're kidding right?
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a bit :) I agree with eccvets about a truly sharp blade. The sharpmaker was a little cheeky since I have to resist a littlebit to his implication that only the paper wheels can get sharp edges. He dislikes the sharpmaker, I do not. The difference is, that I do have my technique down on the sharpmaker and he obviously doesn't (which is oke, sharpening is not a race/competition), so I can at least make a remark based on knowledge about it.

I actually use the sharpmaker rods a lot, especially the ultra fine. but I never use the setup anymore. You can get your knives amazingly sharp with the sharpmaker. I was sharpening my bench made 710 with M390 steel on the UF rods and got hair whittling sharp from it (no stropping).
So the rods are good.
the fixed angle setup is good too, especially when you're starting out.
Yes, it's no good for reprofiling, I have been there too, but for the rest, it's an amazing thing.

Most of the people here do not go freehand all the way, but use a guided thing, like the edgepro, sharpmaker etc etc. There is a place for guided systems imo. I dislike statements without arguments that hold, so I just had to give a little sting because of previous remarks :)
 
I think it behooves one to try different systems. I tried freehand, and was never able to master it. I tried the Lansky, the Crock Sticks and the Sharpmaker. Both the Crock Sticks and to a somewhat lesser degree, the Sharpmaker, were excellent within their rather severe limitations. I tried paper wheels and was not impressed.

I then tried the Edge-Pro, and am completely satisfied with it. I've yet to use the WEPS, but I hear and read so many positive reports, that I have decided to purchase one before the end of the year.

No one system is best for all sharpeners. Use the system that is most compatible with your individual sharpening protocols.
 
Cziv, great thread. You problem now reminds me of my learning experience with DMT stones. I like you wanted to get rid of the hazyness and get that mirror edge. I was doing the same as you and not spending enough time going through the grits. Each step is important for the next. Mine was not spending enough on the fine stone coming off the coarse. I thought hey I've got a burr I can move on to the other side then the other stone. But I still needed to erase the previous stone scratch pattern. I learned that you really have to spend more time on each stone has you work your way to the EEF stone. For me just took lots of practice.

Your bevel looks fine to me so you have a good technique. Some also say that mirror edges don't improve cutting performance. I personally like them for my knife use and they look really cool. DMT stones and pastes are great. With more practice you have edges that look like this.
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^^+1 for both ben dover and prime77.
To add: it does not need to take a lot of time. I used to do long strokes edge first on the stones only. Now i alternate with a quick circling motion. This gets rid of metal and previous scratch patterns quickly, then I use straight movements to get a nice scratch pattern perpendicular to the edge again. This new scratch pattern helps you seeing when you have again done enough on the next stone, since you will be able to tell pretty easily that the scratches are gone.
This method gives me a speed advantage, a visual advantage and good results in getting rid of the scratches from the coarser stone when you use a finer stone, up to the xxf on the dmt for example. Then strop and voila: bling bling ;)
 
cziv said:
You're kidding right?
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What level of sharpness do you want to achieve?

It may have been a joke, but I would suggest that the Sharpmaker is used by many people to get edges that will pass muster with most of the gauges of sharpness posted on these forums (tree topping, hair whittling, etc.). That said, it is not my first choice for most sharpening jobs;)

Just sayin'
 
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