Carbide Coating Blades?

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petah

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Jul 22, 2008
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There are a few recent threads on coating blades in carbides. 80RC was mentioned as the the carbide hardness.

-What are the advantages of this process?
-How does blade hardness under the coating effect the coating and its performance?
-Why isn't this standard in the industry?
-Is the carbide coating continuous/solid/brittle like a sheet of glass?
-Is the coating flexible?
 
Carbide along the edge of titanium knives is standard practice. The machine used for this is a bit expensive, and that may be why you occasionally see titanium knives without an carbide edge.

Titanium is actually quite soft; somewhere around 40 - 45 HRC IIRC. As a result, bare titanium does not hold an edge to well.

The carbide is considerably harder, and is electrically impregnated into the surface of the titanium. This increases edge retention. As most titanium knives are chisel ground for edge stability, the user would sharpen on the bare titanium side that is backed up by carbide on the opposite side.

The carbide is applied in a thin layer by hand in a series of small dots; it's almost like you are drawing it on.

The carbide layer is thin, so the knife is still flexible and not brittle.
 
the net effect is like gluing a razor blade to a piece of plastic, as the soft titanium wears away it exposes the thin sheet of carbide at the edge until that microscopically chips away. Kind of like chrome plating on a cellphone, once the corner wears through the chrome you have a thin sheet of chrome which is hard and sharp, and the plastic erodes away faster so the sheet of chrome always keeps cutting you until you get tired of it and replace the phone. Every couple of years someone comes up with a new gimmick, it gets fashionable for as long as the hype magazines can sell copy on it then everyone forgets about it (kind of like "tactical folders" with shapes copied from the cockpits of attack helicopters) for a couple of years you could sell anything a quarter of an inch thick, chisel ground coated flat black with a pocket clip, thank god that craze is almost over! This too shall pass but not before a few people with a lot of hype behind their marketing make a bunch of money

-Page
 
sunshadow said:
the net effect is like gluing a razor blade to a piece of plastic, as the soft titanium wears away it exposes the thin sheet of carbide at the edge until that microscopically chips away. Kind of like chrome plating on a cellphone, once the corner wears through the chrome you have a thin sheet of chrome which is hard and sharp, and the plastic erodes away faster so the sheet of chrome always keeps cutting you until you get tired of it and replace the phone. Every couple of years someone comes up with a new gimmick, it gets fashionable for as long as the hype magazines can sell copy on it then everyone forgets about it (kind of like "tactical folders" with shapes copied from the cockpits of attack helicopters) for a couple of years you could sell anything a quarter of an inch thick, chisel ground coated flat black with a pocket clip, thank god that craze is almost over! This too shall pass but not before a few people with a lot of hype behind their marketing make a bunch of money

-Page
Click to expand...


Bingo
Stan
 
Field Editor: Ed Fowler - Master Bladesmith “Any knife steel can be impregnated with carbides and will be exceptional when it comes to edge holding. Naturally, the toughness and strength of the original blade will not be influenced, but high-endurance cutting performance is now potentially available to any manufacturer or knife maker. In my opinion, this is the most significant advance in the art and science of cut that I have seen in over 55 years in the knife community.”


Ed endorses it?
 
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What if it was used to cover one or 2 pieces of a pre weld damascus stack... would these carbides have "much" of an effect on the steel's performance outcome, to be noticable?

I have often wondered why damascus makers dont slip in 1 or 2 leaves of tungsten carbide (like lathe cut off tool blanks) into there stack?

Jason
 
I dont think that the carbide will weld very well. Tungsten carbide is sintered at extremely high temperatures that would destroy the other steel
 
Warren Thomas has been doing it for well over a decade.

My shop knife is one he gave me about 4 years ago.
I have yet to sharpen it, and it is a cardboard shredding machine.

Really easy to re-work too if the need should ever arise, just re-apply a fresh coat.
I can't imagine ever needing to do that though.

Once the initial titanium edge wore away on this knife, it just got a bit toothier, and actually goes through cardboard better.
To resharpen I'd just need to regrind the offside bevel a little to get further back into fresh carbide and Ti.

I'm sure I've cut through more than a mile of cardboard with it.

It's actually not a gimmick, though there does seem to be an extraordinary amount of hype surrounding it right now.
I bet this gets worse before it gets better.
I've worked in machine shops where they carbidize their roughing mills, and it increased tool life exponentially.

I talked to Rocklin several years ago when I first started, as I wanted a Carbidizer for my lockfaces.
They kind of blew me off, had little intereset in talking to me, and quoted me some stupid price like more than 3k for their machine!
I bought a $200 machine from Bebe manufacturing.

I saw they had a booth at Blade this year though, so it seems like they decided they could pull a few bucks out of knifemakers after all.
Don't know if they got more reasonable on their pricing.
 
Brian. Are you doing the carbide coating thing and if so can you please give me some info. on the cost ? Are both sides done on the usual two sided grind. Thanks. Frank
 
I am not doing it on my knives Frank.

I just carbide my lock faces on liners and frames.

Figured since I have been around carbidized edges, for 20 years, and knives for a few now, that I would post a little.

I know a lot of folks are thinking "great, a new gimmick", but it works.

It works in industry, and it works at home...

The knife I have is chisel ground, and only the backside is carbidized.

I would think you would only do one side, even on a traditional double grind.

You actually want the blade to wear away a bit, giving you a nice saw toothed edge.

At least that's my experience.

You aren't going to shave with this, but you will tear through flesh and paper products with ease.
 
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It's the best thing since sliced bread......just deal with it. It's here to stay! :D
 
You only carbide one side.
One of our students George Lambert introduced me to it, I tried it on a few blades, they simply cut and keep cutting.

Works wonders on chain saw blades also.

It is nothing new, just being used in another venue.
 
Somewhere I have an old paring knife made in the '60s. The blade is soft cheap stainless and carbide is deposited on one side of the edge .Note 'deposited' not 'impregnated'. So the process is hardly new !!
 
Brian Fellhoelter Knives said:
I bought a $200 machine from Bebe manufacturing.
Click to expand...

Could you please share a link or company information.

I am always interested in making a knife edge cut longer, the last thing I want is for my customer have a dull knife. What if you used this process on CPM154 or D2? Would you ever have to sharpening it? Now you have my attention.

sunshadow said:
Actually sharp is the best thing, jagged is a cheap parlor trick.

-Page
Click to expand...

All edges are jagged. Just some edges the teeth are much smaller.
 
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Ed Fowler said:
You only carbide one side.
One of our students George Lambert introduced me to it, I tried it on a few blades, they simply cut and keep cutting.

Works wonders on chain saw blades also.

It is nothing new, just being used in another venue.
Click to expand...

That is the same experience we are having...It keeps cutting and cutting and cutting..
We even put carbide on our lawnmower blades and machete here on the Snody Ranch.
It is Incredible..
Have a great week everyone..
[youtube]VOrTmT0yHmY[/youtube]
 
BlackToe Knives said:
Could you please share a link or company information.

I am always interested in making a knife edge cut longer, the last thing I want is for my customer have a dull knife. What if you used this process on CPM154 or D2? Would you ever have to sharpening it? Now you have my attention.



All edges are jagged. Just some edges the teeth are much smaller.
Click to expand...

Hey Bro, your right about the edges.
Here is tungsten carbide on 154cm at 60 rc..
Have a good 1
[youtube]IfyIhPIUtqo[/youtube]
 
Brian Fellhoelter Knives said:
Warren Thomas has been doing it for well over a decade.

My shop knife is one he gave me about 4 years ago.
I have yet to sharpen it, and it is a cardboard shredding machine.

Really easy to re-work too if the need should ever arise, just re-apply a fresh coat.
I can't imagine ever needing to do that though.

Once the initial titanium edge wore away on this knife, it just got a bit toothier, and actually goes through cardboard better.
To resharpen I'd just need to regrind the offside bevel a little to get further back into fresh carbide and Ti.

I'm sure I've cut through more than a mile of cardboard with it.

It's actually not a gimmick, though there does seem to be an extraordinary amount of hype surrounding it right now.
I bet this gets worse before it gets better.
I've worked in machine shops where they carbidize their roughing mills, and it increased tool life exponentially.

I talked to Rocklin several years ago when I first started, as I wanted a Carbidizer for my lockfaces.
They kind of blew me off, had little intereset in talking to me, and quoted me some stupid price like more than 3k for their machine!
I bought a $200 machine from Bebe manufacturing.

I saw they had a booth at Blade this year though, so it seems like they decided they could pull a few bucks out of knifemakers after all.
Don't know if they got more reasonable on their pricing.
Click to expand...

Great Post...
Warren was our source of information when we first evaluated this process and became interested in purchasing a carbide deposition unit.
I am full time knifemaker with no other source of income.
I support my family 100% with knifemaking money.
We are not in a position to gamble with unproven technology.
Everything I do has to make money because my young bride and my sons and my pygmy goats and pitbull dogs and chickens dont eat if I dont sell knives.
Much Respect to Warren Thomas for being so generous with his information regarding this process.
He told me this thing would burn all the way through a blade if your not careful and he was not lying, its capable of serious penetration into the base metal.
He gave me some incredible advice and I was able to get a machine with a 100% duty cycle.
I almost purchased a unit with a 50% duty cycle and that would have been money in the trash..
Have a good 1.
[youtube]jyVnMkH4IJ4[/youtube]
 
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