Carbon in the kitchen

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Dec 27, 2013
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Hey guys! I started off making all O1 knives, and i loved them. I have just run a series of knives out of AEB-L and they are looking great. However, i am planning on building a new forge to try doing a little more forging, and my question is how well do carbon kitchen knives sell? I'm in L.A and all my business has been either Damascus or kitchen knives. There are very few hunters or other outdoors people here so I had to adapt to the environment and i was wondering with steels like 1084, W2, or damascus, can you sell kitchen knives very easily? is the rusting factor to much for people? Thanks for your time and I hope you all have a good easter.
 
I find carbon and carbon damascus kitchen knives quite easy to sell. There has been some pretty good effort at educating the public about them the last few years. I heard Bob Kramer for instance, on NPR, talking about how carbon beats stainless for performance in the kitchen. So more people, especially the type that are already foodyish and maybe getting informed about handmade kitchen knives, know that carbon is an attractive option.
Now, do those people know how to take care of a carbon knife? Maybe not. It is well to really stress that if that's what they buy from you, the knife will have to not only be treated much better than kitchen knives often are, but they will have to actively protect it from the ravages of uneducated friends and family!
If they don't like the sound of that, well they get AEB-L in my book.
 
Carbon steel is all we use here in the kitchen. I don't make many kitchen knives, but when I do I use W2, 1086M, or damascus..
 
As someone make a lot of stainless kitchen knives, I think you'll probably do better. The ultimate performance of carbon steel in the kitchen is better. Personally, I can't stand the thought of one of my knives turning into a rusty piece of junk, or even just a less attractive piece, because of someone's lapse of attention or a mother-in-law putting it in the dishwasher once. Plus the idea of spending hours and hours hand sanding to a lovely finish, just to turn around and patina it is not appealing to me. I know for sure that my personal knives would not be looking too hot right now if they weren't stainless. That's why I chose the stainless route, but there are a bunch of good reasons to go carbon.

1. It's trendy. Don't read this as pejorative, there are many who choose carbon steel because they really need/want the best possible performance. But, I've observed a definite push towards nostalgic, hard-core-ish kind of mentality. The reddit/hipster/20-something generation definitely appreciates high-end/hand made stuff, which is good for all of us. The word is out there that carbon steel is what the cool kids use in the kitchen, which fits in with that whole trend. So there are some who would probably really be better served by stainless since they aren't really putting it through super hard use, but they want the carbon because they like the idea of having the best performance.

2. It's easier. Pre-HT I think AEB-L and S35VN are negligibly different to grind than the average carbon steel. Some are definitely tougher to grind, but I don't personally think that makes a huge difference. However, AEB-L is the only one I've tried thus far that isn't a borderline nightmare to grind/finish after HT. Grind your carbon steel after HT and you get a shower of sparks, grind your stainless after HT and you get a shower of what used to be your grinding belt*. Finish sanding didn't used to take me 1/2 of the total build time, now it does. The average buyer has no idea about this, so it's hard to explain why your S35VN knife costs twice as much as a similar looking 1084 knife. The end result is that you have to charge less for your time until people are willing to pay a lot for your knives.

3. It's cheaper. The steel cost, if you go to the right sources, is not necessarily a big deal in terms of total investment in a knife, until you get into the super-duper-steels like S90V and up, or damascus. Using admiral, I can do a big S35VN chef's for about $20 in steel. However, it is more than I'd be paying for carbon steel, and it slowly adds up. More importantly, my abrasive consumption went though the roof upon switching to mostly stainless, I have to buy all ceramic belts (a good idea anyway, but now a requirement), and all my knives now require cryo which means going to Peter's. More $.

Like you, my first 15 knives or so were all carbon steel, or carbon damascus. I went to stainless when I got into cutlery because it made the most sense in my mind. They are both totally valid markets with slightly different focuses (foci?). But going the carbon steel route you can make more knives, faster, and sell them for less. Like you said, some people like myself don't want to deal with the risk of rust, which is why the stainless market exists. I want my knife to look as close to new as possible when it gets handed down, resold, etc. You just have to decide which one to do, or do both.

* I haven't tried every steel in the book, and there may very well be exceptions on both sides to these generalizations. My steels-used list thus far is O1, 1095, 5160, 52100, D2, AEB-L, 440C, S30V, S35VN, and S110V.
 
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I find carbon and carbon damascus kitchen knives quite easy to sell. There has been some pretty good effort at educating the public about them the last few years. I heard Bob Kramer for instance, on NPR, talking about how carbon beats stainless for performance in the kitchen. So more people, especially the type that are already foodyish and maybe getting informed about handmade kitchen knives, know that carbon is an attractive option.
Now, do those people know how to take care of a carbon knife? Maybe not. It is well to really stress that if that's what they buy from you, the knife will have to not only be treated much better than kitchen knives often are, but they will have to actively protect it from the ravages of uneducated friends and family!
If they don't like the sound of that, well they get AEB-L in my book.

^^^ Great advice!

I sell 10 carbon steel kitchen knives to every stainless one. W2, 52100, and Hitachi steels are hot sellers, and new users of high end knives are steered to 15N20. Super forgiving edge, and very easy to touch up. The patina on 15N20 is gorgeous too. I have a sheet with the knife specs, and maintenance spelled out that goes with the knife. I've had only two this year come back from a trip through the dishwasher.

If people are worried about the carbon, I use AEB-L for those who want the super keen edge, and S35VN for those who don't like to sharpen their knives, but are OK with giving up that hair splitting edge the finer steels get.

I also make sure people are aware of the need for a good end grain cutting board and have recently started selling those too, especially with full kitchen sets. A leather strop and a pill bottle size vial of stropping compound goes with the knife. Happy customers equals return customers.
 
As someone make a lot of stainless kitchen knives, I think you'll probably do better. The ultimate performance of carbon steel in the kitchen is better. Personally, I can't stand the thought of one of my knives turning into a rusty piece of junk, or even just a less attractive piece, because of someone's lapse of attention or a mother-in-law putting it in the dishwasher once. Plus the idea of spending hours and hours hand sanding to a lovely finish, just to turn around and patina it is not appealing to me. I know for sure that my personal knives would not be looking too hot right now if they weren't stainless. That's why I chose the stainless route, but there are a bunch of good reasons to go carbon.

All good points. I do know a lot of people who love that patina, and a few people who polish it off.

1. It's trendy. Don't read this as pejorative, there are many who choose carbon steel because they really need/want the best possible performance. But, I've observed a definite push towards nostalgic, hard-core-ish kind of mentality. The reddit/hipster/20-something generation definitely appreciates high-end/hand made stuff, which is good for all of us. The word is out there that carbon steel is what the cool kids use in the kitchen, which fits in with that whole trend. So there are some who would probably really be better served by stainless since they aren't really putting it through super hard use, but they want the carbon because they like the idea of having the best performance.

Agreed. Guys out of college, making good money, into cooking are loving the carbon steel.

2. It's easier. Pre-HT I think AEB-L and S35VN are negligibly different to grind than the average carbon steel. Some are definitely tougher to grind, but I don't personally think that makes a huge difference. However, AEB-L is the only one I've tried thus far that isn't a borderline nightmare to grind/finish after HT. Grind your carbon steel after HT and you get a shower of sparks, grind your stainless after HT and you get a shower of what used to be your grinding belt*. Finish sanding didn't used to take me 1/2 of the total build time, now it does. The average buyer has no idea about this, so it's hard to explain why your S35VN knife costs twice as much as a similar looking 1084 knife. The end result is that you have to charge less for your time until people are willing to pay a lot for your knives.

I always charge more for stainless, or for carbon with a a hamon. I alsop explain options to the buyer when they are deciding on the steel. They know whay they are paying what they are.

3. It's cheaper. The steel cost, if you go to the right sources, is not necessarily a big deal in terms of total investment in a knife, until you get into the super-duper-steels like S90V and up, or damascus. Using admiral, I can do a big S35VN chef's for about $20 in steel. However, it is more than I'd be paying for carbon steel, and it slowly adds up. More importantly, my abrasive consumption went though the roof upon switching to mostly stainless, I have to buy all ceramic belts (a good idea anyway, but now a requirement), and all my knives now require cryo which means going to Peter's. More $.

Agreed.

Like you, my first 15 knives or so were all carbon steel, or carbon damascus. I went to stainless when I got into cutlery because it made the most sense in my mind. They are both totally valid markets with slightly different focuses (foci?). But going the carbon steel route you can make more knives, faster, and sell them for less. Like you said, some people like myself don't want to deal with the risk of rust, which is why the stainless market exists. I want my knife to look as close to new as possible when it gets handed down, resold, etc. You just have to decide which one to do, or do both.

If you are making carbon steel with a hamon, the cost is equalized with the extra expense with S35VN. Hitachi steels are quite expensive to obtain.

* I haven't tried every steel in the book, and there may very well be exceptions on both sides to these generalizations. My steels-used list thus far is O1, 1095, 5160, 52100, D2, AEB-L, 440C, S30V, S35VN, and S110V.

All good points, and well worth the time to consider, and to discuss with your customers.
 
Another stigma i hear often from people, but never happened to me (i only use carbon in my kitchen).... the carbon steel gives offtaste to the food being cut.
Can you confirm or is it just a rumor?
 
Sounds like we're pretty much on the same page Warren:) I have a little blurb on my site explaining my philosophy on the matter. At some point, probably sooner rather than later, I'm going to make a couple in hitachi blue for myself and see how the perform/look after some time in my kitchen. I'll probably get hooked and start doing some of both.
 
I think you're gonna like the Hitachi stuff. Wife's Blue 2 chef has an awesome blue/purple protein patina. Takes a fine edge and keeps it too.
 
I see that aldo has blue #2, any other good sources in the states? I've looked around briefly before and didn't really see any others.
 
im better known for my cp;m154 an XHP knives btu now and then i do carbon (O1)
on single bevels i think only 2 or 3 in the last 10 years have been SS and those were ordered that way i dont think i would make a SS single bevel to have on hand as stock knife
 
Sounds like we're pretty much on the same page Warren:) I have a little blurb on my site explaining my philosophy on the matter. At some point, probably sooner rather than later, I'm going to make a couple in hitachi blue for myself and see how the perform/look after some time in my kitchen. I'll probably get hooked and start doing some of both.

I think you're gonna like the Hitachi stuff. Wife's Blue 2 chef has an awesome blue/purple protein patina. Takes a fine edge and keeps it too.

I am working on a gyuto in Blue right now, and at 220g, the hamon looks like it will be as active as my W2 blades. :thumbup: I have some small pieces of white, and maybe I'll forge one out into a gyuto and see how that turns out. :thumbup:

Only source I know of in the Us is Aldo. White, I get from Dictum in Germany.
 
I am working on a gyuto in Blue right now, and at 220g, the hamon looks like it will be as active as my W2 blades. :thumbup: I have some small pieces of white, and maybe I'll forge one out into a gyuto and see how that turns out. :thumbup:

Only source I know of in the Us is Aldo. White, I get from Dictum in Germany.

I saw dictum too, figured the shipping would be a bear.
 
The other way to look at this is, "make what you wanna make, and find the market."
I also sharpen peoples' knives while I'm selling, so I get to see what they actually use, what their favorite knives are, and how they perform over time.
As a fan of HC, I was pleasantly surprised by how many people have a favorite HC knife and take very good care of it.
Since I simply enjoy working with carbon over stainless, I make a lot more, and fortunately sell a lot more, for whatever reasons.
Every customer gets some instruction and a care sheet that describes how to use HC, and I've only exchanged one for a stainless version in several years.
 
We use in our kitchen a forged 5160, a cable damascus and a Henkles stainless knife. I have sold numerous 1084 kitchen knives as well. We have not noticed any off taste on the carbon ones nor have I had any complaints about the ones I sold.

Some people will always claim to notice an off taste but if that was the case, why do the sushi chefs use high carbon?

I was told by a professional chef that he uses stainless at work because some health inspectors view the patina as "dirty" and write them up because of it. He uses carbon knives at home.
 
The kitchen knife nuts sure seem to like W2, 52100 and the Hitachi stuff a LOT. Someone also mentioned that carbon knives are becoming trendy again. I suspect that the Zwilling/Henckels Bob Kramer knives had a little to do with that .
 
You guys are WAY over-thinking this :) Pick your best design. Make five in stainless and five in carbon. Whichever one sells out first, make more of that.

Truly great kitchen knives can be made from several stainless or carbon or tool steels.

Different target-markets will obviously react differently. There are some chefs who refuse to touch stainless, some tech-heads who always want the latest super-steel, some folks who don't care as long as it's pretty, some who won't go near a $100+ knife, some who turn their nose up at anything that costs less than a grand... and everyone in between. It doesn't matter if the customer is "right" or "wrong", and there's rarely any point trying to convince them. It only matters if you have what they want.

Trends come and go, and they tend to even out over time. There's a market for all sorts of alloys. It really depends on whom you put the knives in front of, and how they're presented. There are some people who just adore knives made of old rusty leaf-springs or files. Many will refuse to even consider a knife that wasn't forged by hand. And if you describe AEB-L as "an inexpensive, medium carbon stainless steel" (which is true)... no one wants it. But if you describe it as "super clean, fine-grained Swedish razor steel" (which is also true), it commands a lot of respect.
 
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The kitchen knife nuts sure seem to like W2, 52100 and the Hitachi stuff a LOT. Someone also mentioned that carbon knives are becoming trendy again. I suspect that the Zwilling/Henckels Bob Kramer knives had a little to do with that .

It's interesting, O1 (from the OP) performs pretty much the same as the "preferred" steels, but doesn't sell as well. All of my mother's knives are O1, and she loves them with the patina.
 
It's interesting, O1 (from the OP) performs pretty much the same as the "preferred" steels, but doesn't sell as well.

99% marketing and perception. O1 is borrrrrring. W2 is rare, Hitachi is both rare and expensive, and 52100 is used for ball bearings. So they must be much much better! :D

In reality I doubt most makers, much less users could honestly tell the difference between them in a normal day's use "blind Pepsi challenge". But perception is reality, or at least part of it. I like O1 just fine, but I've switched over to 52100 for my carbon steel stuff, because it works at least as well, and sells better. (don't tell anyone, but it's actually cheaper, too. :p)
 
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