Carbon nanotubes found in 17th century Damascus blades

May be, but there's an awful lot of hype there involving the performance of damascus blades.
 
That's not new info. It does seem to stretch things a bit so I have my doubts ! After all "nano" technology is the latest buzz word you find it everywhere.
 
It's worth noting modern steels are much better. The Damascus swords were ahead of the pack, but only because everybody elses steel was crap.

It's still cool how they were doing modern things without knowing it.
 
Interesting. Magic swords. If it was true, I wonder what the yield would be for the good ones. Maybe the alchemists were doing more than just playing around with philosophy and lead.
 
I dont know about nanotubes and magic swords! but VerHoven has a good paper about damascus that says that the Vanadium content in the particular steel they used caused the carbon to form bands which in tun gave the blades incredible strength and edge holding ability. this is a much simplified explanation. im sure Mr Cashen could enlighten us all much more, but i have the article posted here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/15937468/Damascus-Steel-Truth

enjoy!
 
I've been reviewing these articles recently and was just wondering about a few things. I do not have access to the original article published by the researchers, but have read one from Nat. Geo. and Nature. From these the properties that wootz is supposed to have are not clearly defined. One says the properties are legend, one says they are fact. The superior properties are presumably sharpness, flexibility, strength, and impact resistance. Has anyone tested any original wootz against contemporary swords to see if they really are that much better? Also, the articles I read have no evidence that the presence of the nanotubes is the reason for the loosely defined properties and feats of the steel. Does the original article quantify the amout of nanotubes? This sample is only from one blade as far as I know. Have other blades been tested and found to contain the same structures, or is this particular blade a one of a kind? Seems like to me the same thing would apply here as would apply to all the legends about katanas. There were some that were incredible, some that were above average, and a few that were junk. Presumably, the latter categories owners didnt live to complain. To say the least, I'm somewhat skeptical that the nanotubes in undefined quantities are responsible for a set of properties that are ascribed to legend and at best vaguely defined. Then again, I've been wrong before, and I'm certain there is more information than what I've read.
 
its not just the nanotubes it is that they are enmeshed in a unique biogenic wholistic free range grass fed proprietary carbon and unobtanium alloy matrix with Boron and antioxidants.
 
The definitions are important .Damascus as is accepted now is folded or layered with two or more types of steel.
Wootz is a very different thing. A cast steel which is then forged to shape .The 'magic' ingredient is vanadium. The vanadium carbides remain from the original cast structure [dendrites] to give great wear resistance.
But of course the myths persist ! Kevin and I will continue to destroy the myths ,just like fighting dragons with our vorpal blades !
 
Why doesn't anyone mention the fact that true damascus was tempered by running the sword through a live slave, or do you guys think that this was not a significant fact to take in consideration?
 
montana guy said:
It would be nice if they could reproduce true Damascus. This has interested me and if I had the time and money I would try and figure it out. Here are some interesting reads on it.
Click to expand...

Who are "they" and what is "true" Damascus? Is it 11th century viking pattern welding? I think it's fair to say no since that had less than nothing to do with Syria. Oh, so it is steel that was made in Syria? Probably not, since most of the steel Syrian swordsmiths used was imported. It just happened that the guys finishing the swords were in Damascus. Things finished in Damascus were likely where the name came from...So, we're looking at the crucible steel now more widely known as Wootz. People have "recreated" it. Take a look at the work of Al Pendray and Dr. Verhoeven.

Additionally, a good bit of research on the properties of original as well as modern Wootz. It would seem that a lot of the legends are just that. You can't wrap a Wootz blade around your waist like a belt and then deploy it as a sword when needed...It just doesn't work. After talking to Ric Furrer (another modern 'smith who has produced a LOT of Wootz) and in his testing (with modern and period Wootz) the steel deflects to about 15-20 degrees before failing. Sometimes a good story is just a good story....

Alex p. Schorsc said:
Why doesn't anyone mention the fact that true damascus was tempered by running the sword through a live slave, or do you guys think that this was not a significant fact to take in consideration?
Click to expand...

Please tell me you're just kidding....really.

Mete said:
But of course the myths persist ! Kevin and I will continue to destroy the myths ,just like fighting dragons with our vorpal blades !
Click to expand...

We thank you guys for it.

-d
 
deker said:
Who are "they" and what is "true" Damascus? Is it 11th century viking pattern welding? I think it's fair to say no since that had less than nothing to do with Syria. Oh, so it is steel that was made in Syria? Probably not, since most of the steel Syrian swordsmiths used was imported. It just happened that the guys finishing the swords were in Damascus. Things finished in Damascus were likely where the name came from...So, we're looking at the crucible steel now more widely known as Wootz. People have "recreated" it. Take a look at the work of Al Pendray and Dr. Verhoeven.

Additionally, a good bit of research on the properties of original as well as modern Wootz. It would seem that a lot of the legends are just that. You can't wrap a Wootz blade around your waist like a belt and then deploy it as a sword when needed...It just doesn't work. After talking to Ric Furrer (another modern 'smith who has produced a LOT of Wootz) and in his testing (with modern and period Wootz) the steel deflects to about 15-20 degrees before failing. Sometimes a good story is just a good story....
Click to expand...

Really? I thought they could be tied in knots for easy storage...
stickpoke.gif
"They" would be people who are metallurgists/mastersmiths that have the proper equipment to recreate the old ways. And while legends are often blown out of proportion, someone saw something that started it. The idea of a sword being so strong it can destroy others is not that far fetched.
 
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So, just so I'm clear on this: does anyone have a first-hand account, or link to, a systematic test of actual, 'best quality' historical Damascus -- and a principled comparison of it to modern alloys? Is there any actual data about its edge-stability, wear resistance, charpy figures at specific hardnesses? I know these guys weren't making 'factory pieces' but there has to be something specific and quantifiable people can say about the properties of the material as it contributed to these blades...
 
I don't want to start a poo storm by reviving an old thread after nearly a year. I just wondered if the presence of these nanotube structures has been linked to actual improvements over contemporary European swords.

Now that I read my own question, I have to ask if there were any actual improvements, or if it was all just legend and 4 centuries and 2 continents worth of "I knew this guy who knew this guy who knew this guy who saw his buddy get cut in half by a sword that also cut the deceased's sword in two when he tried to block the strike." I mean, we still have people who swear that katanas were used to cut gun barrels in two just 60 years ago. We can easily recreate these situations and show that maybe, under just the right circumstances, impact from a sword on a gun barrel could make 2 pieces out of one, but the barrel was hardly "cut" and impact from a hammer would have done just as good.
 
In the age of 24 hour 30 second sound bites and the internet I believe the loss of mankind's critical and independent thinking is accelerating for almost all topics, but there are a few that we seem to have no resistance to at all. In my career wootz has consistently shown itself to be one of those topics. The only claim I have not yet heard is that it was made by extra terrestrials, but just wait and give it some time since inferring that 6th century metal workers were manipulating structures that can only be resolved with an electron microscope is not too far from crediting E.T.

If this writing, which I first saw a few years ago, is going to continue to enjoy credibility I would like to see a more exhaustive study on cast irons and a wide variety of steels with carbon in excess of 1%. Wootz would suddenly lose some of its supernatural aura if we found the same structures accidentally placed by nature between the ledeberite in gray cast, now wouldn't it?

When we look at the surface of Mars objectively for the purpose of merely gathering data we learn about its geology, weather and past, but when we look at that planet desperate to support our belief in Martians we see canals, abandoned cities, and more recently mile high pyramids and human faces carved from mountains.

I would hazard that I have sent more time than most on this board looking at wootz through a metallograph, I have seen very interesting carbon structures unique to many alloys above 1% Carbon, but in the end what I really have seen is just another steel, nothing more, nothing less.

I have even seen places for improvement...;)
 
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