carbon steel / stainless steel the endless question

i have some opinels, they cut like demons, hold a good edge, and sharpen easy.
the big difference with opinels and spyderco knives is , as you already know,
the very thin edge profile of the opinels compared to a delica for example.
opinel blades are also very very thin.
anyway, ive customized some of them, with a file, that can go very easy through the steel
of those french folders.
the douk douk has a much more tougher steel than opinels, from what ive seen.
the thing that made me start this thread, was the fact i once had a war bayonet/sword,had a
blade of around 50 cm, from year 1900 or something, had a blade made of some carbon steel,
dont know what type, and i got to tell you, ive never seen a thing more strong than that.
i could never destroy the edge, and ive hit it on all i could find, trees, metal cans, you name
it. This was 10 years ago....
since than i could never find another steel that strong.
im talking here not in a practical way, but in a idealistic way, so please dont tell me again
that staineless is better in humidity and so on, and the best type of steel depends on what
you would do with it and so on.
except the laminated multiple layers japanese swords, that have a high carbon center also,
i ve never seen a battle ready sword made of stainless steel.
after reading the posts here, i see that carbon steel / tool steel, is regarded as the toughest steel around, like Lycosa said, in overall cutting, and considering the cutting capabilities only, (said Sharp-K) .
also nozh2002 has a good point about sharpening the damn thing, if you are on field and have no diamond rods on you, how will it take you to become insane until you get an edge with a rock on that zdp-189 :D
thanks all
 
If the steel is cut easily with a file, then it is soft. Douk douks are also fairly soft. Bayonets are not knives, and they don't cut well. Maybe yours was case hardened as well. What laminated japanese swords use stainless steel?

If you don't want to be told that the best steel depends on the application, then don't ask. There are a variety of steels for the very reason that different applications have different demands.
 
hardheart said:
If the steel is cut easily with a file, then it is soft. Douk douks are also fairly soft. Bayonets are not knives, and they don't cut well. Maybe yours was case hardened as well. What laminated japanese swords use stainless steel?

If you don't want to be told that the best steel depends on the application, then don't ask. There are a variety of steels for the very reason that different applications have different demands.
Click to expand...

ye i know, i had to ask :D
my mistake with the stainless lamination in japanese swords...
thanks for corecting it
 
I found two interesting quotes on the stainless vs. carbon issue from knifemaker Dan Farr:

"Some common tool steels [carbon] that make good knives, listed in order of increasing Charpy toughness, include D2, A2, CPM M4, 01, CPM3V, L6, and W2. While the Charpy tests indicate quite a wide range in this group, all make excellent, tough knives. I will go out on a limb and state that I believe the steels with the highest performance potential (a phrase I borrow from Warren Osborne)--meaning they are able to endure cutting tests employing the thinnest edge with enough wear resistance to maintain sharpness--are in this group. A contestant will likely choose one of these steels if he/she wants to participate in cutting competitions."

Quote 2:

"I carry a folder made by R.J. Martin every day, and it has a blade of CPM S30V. I have tested (read that as abused) it regularly and would absolutely trust it in a life-threatening situation. In fact, as R.J. states, 'I have never had a blade failure in any stainless CPM alloy--S30V, S60V, S90V or CPM154.'...If the knife is so tough that it cannot be broken by hand power, it is tough enough."

Both quotes are from "Toughest when Super Thin," Blade magazine, March 2008.

Farr essentially says that the toughness required varies directly with blade size. The larger the blade, the more energy that can be generated by the user. He doesn't address the more exotic steels such as ZDP-189
 
wutitiz said:
I found two interesting quotes on the stainless vs. carbon issue from knifemaker Dan Farr:

"Some common tool steels [carbon] that make good knives, listed in order of increasing Charpy toughness, include D2, A2, CPM M4, 01, CPM3V, L6, and W2. While the Charpy tests indicate quite a wide range in this group, all make excellent, tough knives. I will go out on a limb and state that I believe the steels with the highest performance potential (a phrase I borrow from Warren Osborne)--meaning they are able to endure cutting tests employing the thinnest edge with enough wear resistance to maintain sharpness--are in this group. A contestant will likely choose one of these steels if he/she wants to participate in cutting competitions."

Quote 2:

"I carry a folder made by R.J. Martin every day, and it has a blade of CPM S30V. I have tested (read that as abused) it regularly and would absolutely trust it in a life-threatening situation. In fact, as R.J. states, 'I have never had a blade failure in any stainless CPM alloy--S30V, S60V, S90V or CPM154.'...If the knife is so tough that it cannot be broken by hand power, it is tough enough."

Both quotes are from "Toughest when Super Thin," Blade magazine, March 2008.

Farr essentially says that the toughness required varies directly with blade size. The larger the blade, the more energy that can be generated by the user. He doesn't address the more exotic steels such as ZDP-189
Click to expand...

this is what i needed to hear :D
 
wutitiz said:
"Some common tool steels [carbon] that make good knives, listed in order of increasing Charpy toughness, include D2, A2, CPM M4, 01, CPM3V, L6, and W2.
Click to expand...

I'd be really interested in how he arrived at putting W2 ahead of L6 and 3V in impact toughness. :confused: I've never seen or heard of any impact charts that come close to that. So really, I'd like to if anyone has access to one. Was this supposed to be apples 'n' apples, or is he assuming differentially heat treated W2 or something?
 
I don't know. The only charpy data I found after a quick search was from Crucible (cpm) steel, and they don't list L6 or W2. I did double check the quote--it was correct. I'm pretty sure the answer would have nothing to do with differential heat treatment.
 
I'd be really interested in how he arrived at putting W2 ahead of L6 and 3V in impact toughness
Click to expand...

Same with O-1 being tougher than CPM M4. These things do not compute. Joe
 
Well, I'm glad you guys are reading my articles! I spent about 30 days, researching, read over 350 pages of texts, talked to metallurgists, knfemakers, and steel companies, scoured the web, and I can stand behind my Charpy stats. Remember, the Charpy test measures one thing, how a highly specified sample reacts to a Charpy tester. There are always questions like do you test all steels at the same RC, or at each steel's optimal RC for toughness, or optimal Rc for wear resistance etc. In the end it is a good repeatable, relative test that puts all the steels on even footing. The toughness of the steel in your knife is dependent on the micro structure you create with your heat treating process, and the alloy of the steel. In the article when I am expressing opinions, I try to make it clear that I am doing so. I'm really committed to keeping things honest, and accurate in the articles, and hope you will find value in them. I have them proof read for errors by at least 3 experts before I submit them to Blade. If I am wrong on something please send me the material to back up the claims, so I don't spread bad info. That would be worse than not writing at all! I do want to say thanks for reading them.

Dan Farr
 
Comparing W2 (on paper) is difficult because of the wide variations
in chemistry.....Carbon from 0.70 to 1.50...Vanadium from 0.15 to 0.35,
...etc.
The other steels mentioned have minimal allowable variances, by
comparison.
 
jacktrades_nbk said:
i was just wondering, beside the rust problem, is the carbon steel the absolute blade steel, or there are some stainless that put it to shame ?
my basic question is, with all those new stainless around, like powder steel as zdp 189, sgps, or stainless high carbon as vg 10, and so on, does the carbon steel remain the best or not ?
Click to expand...

Well, what are you comparing?

Is carbon steel stainless? No, it isn´t.

Could you exchange any stainless by a non stainless and keep the properites or getting them partly better (wear resistance, toughness, sharpness...) just without being stainless? Yes, you can.

Choosing stainless steel is just a matter of "i can´t get any other in that knife style" or "it has to be stainless".
 
Dan Farr, thanks for the post--I was the one who quoted your article. It summed up better than I have seen the reasoning behind whether to use stainless or carbon. I enjoyed the article, and hope that you have a few more in you. Blade does not do enough of this.
 
I was talking to a real serious wood carving dude. He told me only novices use stainless steel, the serious carvers use High Carbon.

He had a "traveling pack" of wood carving tools. I handled them. Sharp, very sharp.
 
Thanks for chiming in, Dan. But really, I'd still be curious to see the specific charts or info you found showing this for W2, because I still have a lot to learn about the metallurgy side of things myself. At first glance it just doesn't quite jive with what I've gleaned from casual reading.

The wide range of acceptable carbon content could indeed have something to do with it, which is another one of those things I wasn't aware of. At the lower carbon end, if I'm remembering things correctly it could still be a mix of lath and plate martensite. But at the higher end, it would be mostly plate, which is more brittle. And still, I suppose the heat treat regimen could influence how much of that carbon was dissolved in solution, which could change things further. But just as a general rule, I thought the nickel in L6 gave it much higher impact strength compared to the simpler steels.

But I agree that articles like this are about the most interesting things I've read in Blade, so please, by all means, keep writing!
 
Blop said:
Could you exchange any stainless by a non stainless and keep the properites or getting them partly better (wear resistance, toughness, sharpness...) just without being stainless? Yes, you can.

Choosing stainless steel is just a matter of "i can´t get any other in that knife style" or "it has to be stainless".
Click to expand...
That isn't necessarily true. For example, just about any martensitic stainless has higher wear resistance than any of the common forging alloys.
 
then again, non-stainless but hell to forge could also have really high wear resistance. 10V, Cru-wear, T15, etc.
 
I like SS in the kitchen, near the water and give me 01 and 1095 for everything else. This is my personnel opinion and those who prefer SS in other knives may have better reasons for their choice. Much of my preference for 1095 and 01 is that the price is much more in line with my wishes. Plus these steels have served me well for 50+ years and I don't expect anything will change at this point.:D
 
udtjim said:
I like SS in the kitchen, near the water and give me 01 and 1095 for everything else. This is my personnel opinion and those who prefer SS in other knives may have better reasons for their choice. Much of my preference for 1095 and 01 is that the price is much more in line with my wishes. Plus these steels have served me well for 50+ years and I don't expect anything will change at this point.:D
Click to expand...


That is about how I see it also. Except for the 50+ years part since I am only 35yrs old.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top